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Tail docking/ear cropping

Discussion in 'Other Animals' started by Latestarter, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. Nov 27, 2016
    Latestarter

    Latestarter Novice; "Practicing" Animal Husbandry Moderator

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    It's rather amazing how much damage one or two bad apples can do to the bunch. Justsayin...
     
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  2. Nov 27, 2016
    soarwitheagles

    soarwitheagles Loving the herd life

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    Latestarter,

    The last thing I want to do is give LGD's a bad rap. I believe 99.9% of LGD's are really nice and do a great job.

    Unfortunate for me, my first introduction to LGD's was a negative one that was from a person that had the bad experience with one.

    I am hoping to renew my mind [paradigm shift] by reading about many positive experiences with LGD's and one day, actually owning a LGD.

    Please forgive me if I have been too negative regarding LGD's. Let's not permit one negative experience to sour all the good in the adventure of owning a good LGD!

    Please post some good stories about LGD's or perhaps we can make new a thread titled, "Positive experiences with LGD's!"

    For every negative experience with LGD's I am certain their must be literally thousands of positive experiences with them!

    Help us out here if you can!

    I will begin by sharing two true stories of a dog that saved my life twice...

    It was back in the 1970's, and I lived in a remote part of the Santa Cruz Mountains in a genuine rain forest of giant redwood trees. I was hiking just above the forest when suddenly, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a snake swiftly coil and strike at me. At that exact moment, my dog just happened to run quickly between me and that rattle snake. The rattle snake attempted to attach itself to my dog's side, but the fur was way too thick. So he did not get bitten and he most certainly saved me from the four fangs of the rattler. Due to the remoteness of my location at the time, I think I would have been in serious trouble because I would have had to hike quite a ways before phoning for emergency personnel.

    Second incident occurred in the 1970's one night just past midnight. Some wacko had hiked through the woods and was hiding in the bushes near my cabin. To this day I am not sure who it was. But when I went to investigate with my dog, he flushed the intruder out, and then chased the intruder through the forest for quite some time. Early the next morning, I tracked the person's prints for quite some distance through the woods and realized my dog had flushed out someone who had hidden in the bushes observing me in the middle of the night...and this was when Santa Cruz was the murder capital of the world...

    So I like a good dog. I had many, many years of fun with that dog. Some people thought my dog was part German Shepherd and part coyote. To this day, I am not sure what he was, but I do know he was incredibly protective and incredibly loyal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  3. Nov 27, 2016
    babsbag

    babsbag Herd Master

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    @Southern by choice can share many many stories about her LGDs. Mine protect me when I am outside. I have good fences and DH didn't want a dog that barks all night (my current ones do not bark all night) but I talked him into a pair of dogs. Now that I have them my life has changed as far as being comfortable on the property at night. If they aren't on alert then I know that I am safe. I will never be without them again. My male has also saved a kid from drowning in a water trough, has cleaned many a kid when I haven't been here, and just generally takes care of the newborns. He stands guard over them until I relieve him of his duties. And they like people.

    They do bark when they need to, my electric fence can fail and I don't panic anymore. They follow the herd out to browse, and just make me smile. I have few and far neighbors right now and the few times they have gotten out the dogs come back in a few minutes, they don't go far. It is best to let your neighbors know that you have dogs and that they are livestock friendly just in case. Many neighbors actually like the LGDs as they will keep the neighborhood clear or predators.
     
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  4. Nov 28, 2016
    Latestarter

    Latestarter Novice; "Practicing" Animal Husbandry Moderator

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    Please understand my comment was in no way intended to be harsh toward you, your experience to date, or your "fears"/concerns. I was merely pointing out that in today's litigious society and the news providers need for blood & guts and sensationalism, you only hear one side of virtually any/every story... the gory, bloody, bad side that drives up viewer numbers and sales. You don't hear about the flip side, the good, because that's not as interesting. You can read many stories already posted on the LGD threads, both good and bad. Nothing as devastating as what happened to your neighbor, and I am sorry that he had to endure that.

    I have extremely limited LGD experience and started out with an LGD from a very knowledgeable/experienced/thorough/conscientious/BYH member/breeder. I have years of experience with dogs in general. LGD breeds are "different" than a normal "pet" dog. They are more intelligent, more independent, generally very intuitive, & much more protective of what they "own" and that which is "owned" by you; their owner/partner. My Mel is very friendly to virtually anyone that comes to my place. You can verify that with @Devonviolet or @Baymule And I have met both of their LGDs and the only damage was being drooled on, a couple of dew claw scratches on my inner forearms from supporting them while they tried to kiss my face, and dog hair on my clothes :love The ones I've had the pleasure of meeting (introduced by the owners - not walking up to them on my own) have been pretty much awesome animals :love Mine is a big loveable lug who needs his ear scratches and attention.

    The exception is if I'm wary or "stand-off-ish" toward the person. And if a person ever shows up that Mel doesn't like, I can assure you that I'll trust his judgement. The whole purpose of the LGD is to be "scary" and "threatening" to scare off potential adversaries/predators. They shouldn't attack except as a last resort. And if a person brings that on themselves, they'd best be ready because if Mel is attacking them, it would be for a reason, & I will be too. When Mel goes off site with me for socialization, he's always been the perfect gentleman dog with everyone who has approached him. Never a single growl. I've met LGD's in the mountain meadows of the high rockies guarding sheep and they bark and threaten as you approach the herd. But if you stop and back off, as I did, they do as well. They just don't want you near their charges.

    I have no idea of the history of the neighbor or dog involved with his injuries. It really doesn't matter. I do want to point out though that in today's society, if a thief enters your residence and trips and falls down a flight of stairs, he could sue you for injuries and in many states (notably the most liberal ones like the one YOU live in) he would likely win compensatory damages. The poor thief shouldn't have to worry about being injured while stealing from you. :he:somad:rant It has been said that if you accidentally hit someone with your car, you should back over them to make sure they're dead as it's less costly than a court liability & damages battle that could cost you millions and destroy your financial future. In some states, the govt will "allow you" to protect yourself and possessions as long as the perp is inside your residence. But heaven forbid you shoot him while he's on your front porch. So if the first round doesn't drop him, it's said make sure he's dead then drag him back inside... I shouldn't think that I need ANYONE'S permission to protect myself, my family and my belongings. I consider it a God given right. A sad state of affairs indeed. OK... getting into rant mode... time to back off :D

    If you get the chance to visit a ranch with working LGDs or a good breeder's ranch where there are active working dogs, I will be completely astounded if you don't fall in love with them when you interact with them. They are a breed apart and special in so many ways. I can't see myself ever being without one again, and I don't even have my livestock yet. justsayin ;)

    Sounds like your dog friend in your youth was indeed a lifesaver for you. :D
     
  5. Nov 28, 2016
    Bruce

    Bruce Herd Master

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    I don't have a lot of experience with LGDs but 2 years ago we visited a breeder of Anatolians in Oregon when there visiting my father. There were probably close to a dozen dogs out with the goats including a few pups probably 8-10 weeks old. I was expecting a bunch of wary dogs and figured they would keep their distance. We went out in the pasture with the breeder and only one dog kept her distance with that wary look I was expecting from all of them. The rest NEEDED to be scratched. Once they each had their turn they wandered off back to their jobs. The pups stuck around of course. Turns out the reason the one female was standoffish was because some kids had visited the prior week (nephews I think she said) and they had been chasing after the dog.

    And we met a GP at the fair, he was in a pen with some sheep. He is an outside dog whose job is to guard sheep when at home. He was tired having been petted by hundreds of strangers pretty much the whole day.

    The people who gave us the 2 alpacas have a herding dog and a GP but NEITHER has been trained AT ALL as a working dog (sorta sad given they had 7 alpacas and 3 goats). Bark bark bark and lots of running around any time people on the road walk by the house. Same thing when we went to the house even when the people were home. We went to water and treat the 2 remaining alpacas (the ones we were getting) and the goats daily for 2 weeks in early September while the people were on vacation. The lady (Kelly, in her 40's) said the GP plays kind of rough with her husband and her because they wrestled with him when it was a pup (now maybe 15 months old??). But he is a LAMB near Kelly's mother who is a bit unsteady on her feet. Her 2 dogs are Toy Yorkies. Aslan (the GP) KNOWS how to behave with various members of the family and no one had to teach him to be VERY gentle around Kelly's mother.
     
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  6. Dec 1, 2016
    Bruce

    Bruce Herd Master

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    $10-$20/day starts to get significant pretty fast!

    I went back through this thread focusing on the LGD attack on your neighbor. What I can't find is any indication that the dog was a working Livestock Guardian Dog or was a dog that is one of the breeds commonly used to guard livestock. Big difference.

    Think of property guard dogs. Which come to mind? Perhaps a Doberman Pinscher with docked tail and pointy cropped ears that stand up? I worked for a vet when I was in college as a pre-vet major (before I figured out I didn't really want to spend my life dealing with flea allergies, spays and neuters, etc). I worked weekends, first task in the morning was to put the dogs out in the runs and clean the cages. Which puppies cowered in the back of their cage while all the others were up front looking for attention? The long tailed floppy eared Dobies.

    Point being dogs are trained to their tasks. There are plenty of cut/docked Dobies that are fearsome to look at (partly because we have been conditioned to think all Dobies are aggressive) but friendly as can be. And there are those that are trained to be aggressive guard dogs. OR they are untrained and uncontrolled. I'm wondering if your neighbor was attacked by a LGD breed dog that was one of the 2 latter types.
     
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  7. Dec 1, 2016
    babsbag

    babsbag Herd Master

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    I had a house sitter at my place over Thanksgiving and I was a little concerned that my 11 month old puppy was not going to like her. The pup has always been a little timid of new things in her space, like a wheelbarrow or a piece of plywood. I don't have visitors often, the last one in the barn was in July so I just wasn't sure about her. Well, she loved the sitter. I introduced them and after that all was well; of course my 2 older dogs got her all muddy and had to have belly rubs. I would love to see what these dogs do with a stranger when I'm not around. Maybe my sense of safety and protection around them is over rated. :)

    My female, Sigueme, even lets people around her puppies. She stays right near, and gives the stink eye if they misbehave but no aggression at all. Once a man came to look at the pups and mama left, wouldn't stay in the barn with him. She went about 20' away and sat down and just watched. Fortunately he decided that an LGD wasn't for him which I was happy about. If she didn't like him he didn't deserve a puppy. He had 2 children with him so I wasn't afraid for my safety but it made me wonder about Sig's discernment. She has only done that once with multiple litters of pups.
     
  8. Dec 2, 2016
    soarwitheagles

    soarwitheagles Loving the herd life

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    Bruce, you bring up very important points and sure helps a lot.

    Yes, $10-$20 per day does begin to add up very fast! We are so happy that the sheep can eat in the forest with no problems at this time.

    I suppose just about any dog can be a "good" dog if it is brought up/trained right. I still have not been able to speak with our neighbor's son who was attacked by the dog in question. I look forward to speaking to him and asking many more questions! Perhaps greater clarity will help sort this out.

    Thanks again for your help!

    Babs,

    Another great story and thank you for sharing!
     
  9. Dec 5, 2016
    misfitmorgan

    misfitmorgan True BYH Addict

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    The dobie stereotype is why we have our dobie meet as many people as possible. He is a blue and tan so people dont realize he is a dobie and think he is some kind of odd colored weimaraner. They will be loving all up on him and then ask what breed he is and the look of shock on their face when you say doberman pinscher is pretty priceless. So..please meet our dobie!

    This is Issac....doesnt he look terrifying...
    20161016_110944.jpg
    20160927_212102.jpg
    His tail is docked but his ears are not and he is an intact male.
    This is our other big dog, Kora she is a Dobie poodle cross.....loving on her daddy
    20161024_233724.jpg

    This is my 12lb chihuahua mix using the dobie as her own personal couch and heater.
    20161021_225812.jpg

    Before Issac we had Mauler who was also a black and tank dobie, and before mauler was his mother gracie. Our home would never be the same without a dobie.

    We have owned many breeds of dogs and dobies are the sweetest smartest dogs i have ever met.....when raised right. Being against LGD's because one attacked someone is no worse then being against any other breed for attacking someone....all breeds have reported bite/attack cases even tiny 4lb chihuahua's and american's #1 family dog the labrador retriever.

    It horrible when anyone is attacked by any breed of dog. DH has a good friend who had half of her face taken off by a Golden Retriever during an attack but that doesnt mean i would never own a golden retriever.

    I'll get off my box now. Definitely think you should look into a LGD for your needs as it could help you out a lot!
     
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  10. Dec 5, 2016
    NH homesteader

    NH homesteader Herd Master

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    Love him! He's beautiful! Love Dobies with ears.

    I won't join the soapbox. But I do think it's important to to educate yourself before getting a LGD. If you're afraid of the dog that won't help anything. I can't wait until I can have a LGD, but I'm also doing research and saving up to get the right one.

    Most (not all) dog aggression issues are because of poor training, lack of knowledge or the dog being placed in a bad situation. I know some dogs are just prone to aggression, I'm not saying it's never the dog's "fault". Do your research and decide if a LGD is right for you. Until then, what type of fencing are you using? Add some really hot electric fence if you're not using it already.

    Try to find some farmers near you that have LGD's doing their job right. Learn from them. Then look for your own!