The basics to horses

[farmerjan]

They don't make any more land. If the property is a good buy then it would probably be a good deal.
You could work out a deal for someone to make the alfalfa hay so that you would have hay in your barn and some income from the rest? One thing, don't consider grazing it if you want it for hay because the animals can easily bloat on it when grazing. Alfalfa is a high protein feed, and we have grazed some mixed stands... but we also feed pre grazing anti bloat blocks for the cattle. It is tricky to do it... not impossible, but losing one animal would make it a very expensive lesson. And the alfalfa does not hold up well in grazing rotations unless it is the newer varieties that are supposed to be used for grazing. We just have found that making hay and being able to control the feeding is ALOT safer in the long run for our cattle and sheep.

We have 2 places that we run cattle on one section and make first cutting hay in the other 2 sections. Then that gets moved into the rotation for grazing. It works well if we get a decent amount of rain to get some regrowth.... it is a balancing act. But we do not have near enough head to put there to keep it down in the fast growth in the spring, and then sustain that number through the rest of the summer. So your possible plans to do what you are thinking on the ground you have now makes perfect sense.

Just because Dexters are a smaller breed, don't discount the amount of feed/hay/grass they eat. In reality highlands are also considered a small breed. And they are very very hardy. They can seem to live on very little because of the way the breed has been developed. Because Dexters are considered more of a dual purpose breed, they actually will require a little more feed for their size since their bodies are designed to make more milk than a straight bred beef animal. Just something to think about.

It is nice of you to want to keep your "eye open" for a possible place for the neighbor horse guy... but it is not your problem and it sounds like he is not a good steward of his land. You don't want to help him find a nice place, with people who are taking good care of their land like you do with yours, and then have him overgraze it and destroy the existing grass. I get that he is a friend... but you have different goals and you OBVIOUSLY are much more in tune with the land and your animals. That is something that is to be proud of. We try very hard to leave places we rent in as good or better shape each year and it has paid off in finding other places when we lose one. Mostly when we lose one, it is because the place has been sold.... and a couple that we had "taken out from under us" by someone offering more money.... and have had 2 come back to us in a few years because the other person just used the land up and didn't fertilize or otherwise take care of it. We turned one down, took back the other and then got screwed over again 3 years later... and will NEVER go back in there. Now, when we are going to lease a place, the first year is 1 yr and if both are happy after, then a minimum of 5 years. And everything is written out so that both parties KNOW what the other is responsible for. It makes for a fair deal for both.

I think you have a good outlook on what you are doing... and by taking the field out of horse use this year makes it much easier to just keep it out after that.

 

[Legamin]

@Legamin I recently had to sell my horses due to unfortunate circumstances, but I'm keeping my sheep and dogs. Moving to a temporary place until I find my next farm. That said, I understand the small livestock versus large livestock. My horses cut a deep trail down a slope that rain and erosion washed out even worse. I had to fill it in, but they still walked in the same place. I dry lotted them frequently (same with sheep) due to new and limited grass to keep them from killing it.

You will have to have a frank discussion with your neighbor and explain the damage the horses do to the pasture. The weed seed distribution alone would be enough for me. If he looks at a destroyed pasture and sees no problem, then he needs to destroy his own pasture, then scratch his head or maybe his butt, same difference, and wonder where his grass went, and why there are deep ruts eroding his soil away. Tell him that you will no longer be able to use weed killer and he probably doesn't want to come dig up every weed clump his horses poop out.

Or even better, buy a steer for the freezer. Use the excess pasture to feed the family. Use hot wire to contain the steer where you want the weeds eaten or trampled, move him often. In a tight pen, the steer will have to eat or trample the weeds. Trampling crushes the weeds down where worms and soil microbes can break down the humus and improve the soil. Leaving the steer in one place until it is a barren dust or mud hole is defeating the purpose. Extra work, moving daily, but it sure helps a pasture.

Either way, you don't need to let the horses come back. Bringing 6 horses to graze your small pasture is inconsiderate and overkill. If you must bring the horses back, limit it to 2 and explain why. Don't be surprised if he doesn't get it.

If nothing else, mow it. A mulching mower will chop up the grass/weeds and return the humus to the soil. Better than horse damage.

Don't get me wrong. I love horses. It hurt to have to sell mine. But I'm going from 8 acres to 2 acres, only about 1 acre for the sheep. No room for horses. When I find what I want, I want horses again.

You can actually use horses or cattle as dead end hosts for parasites. Sheep parasites are different from horse or cow parasites. Rotational grazing with different species can curtail parasites for the different species. You can use electric fencing to divide the pastures, easy to put up and take down.

Parasite larva crawl up the blades of grass, waiting for the animal to bite it off and continue the parasite cycle. But if a horse or cow bites it off first, the sheep parasites don't survive. It works in reverse too. You have to move them often to prevent damage, wait for the grass to regrow, then graze the sheep. Something to think about.

I’m probably moving towards that decision but it’s a delicate one as he has, in fact, utterly destroyed the 5 acres that he and his family rent, and the horses have turned the entire property into a dry dirt lot with nothing but napweed (which they transferred to the back of my property..($600 for specialized napweed killing poison) and it will take years to get rid of it completely. That particular weed in this area, if it gets a foothold, is the absolute kiss of death to good productive land. At his place he feeds only hay and there is no foliage left.
I want to preserve the friendship but I think you are right about ending the grazing agreement. Since I replanted it is definitely off for the next year and I will probably keep my ears to the wind in the community to help him find other pasture for grazing.
as far as the cow idea I have another friend who raises Scottish long

I have to agree with both @Baymule and @Mini Horses . I had horses for years. They are a herd animal but a trail type as opposed to sheep. They are hard on pastures if not managed exactly right. I am in complete agreement that you need to get a steer to raise for meat. In fact, you should have 2, raise one for yourself and sell the other. They do better with company just like any herd animal.

The steers will also respect the electric fencing better than a horse will. Once they get "bit" with a shock. 99% of them will stay away from it. Many beef farmers use a single strand to rotational graze beef cattle.

It is time for you to take back your pastures for your own use and benefit. Bush hogging at the right time will keep the weeds from setting seed heads so that is very important. The chopped up organic matter will be broken down by the worms and other microbes into healthier soil.
Actually, you need to learn more about actual GRASS MANAGEMENT for it to do the best job for you. Good "graziers" are actual soil and grass managers first with the cattle an extra benefit.
If you are planning to go all organic, try reading some publications that are into grass management... Stockman Grass Farmer is a good one as is Acres USA....

You need to just tell your neighbor that you are expanding your sheep operation and will be utilizing the pastures to do so. You are sorry, but you can no longer accommodate the horses. It is your land, you do not have a written lease agreement or anything correct? So, for the little bit of meat you get in "payment" you can much better utilize this grass and ground for your own purposes.

Another thing.... horses and sheep do not mix well when there is breeding going on. The horses can get too rough, and honestly pasture breeding horses on someone else's land is asking for a lawsuit down the road. The rams will also get protective and the smell of estrus can provoke any intact male of any breed. So you could have a ram nosing around a mare or a stallion getting aggressive with a ewe. There was always an old saying about a woman not handling a stallion when she had her period due to the change of smells and body chemistry... animals can tell the difference. And honestly, horses could kick a sheep and hurt or kill it easily. Don't have to be being mean, but why risk it.
They should NOT be grazed together; but in succession for things like the parasite control. You can accomplish that with grazing a couple of steers behind the sheep. One thing, if they are wool sheep, the lanolin from the wool will affect the grasses and some animals will not want to graze behind them.

To your point, I do not have any written agreement. he has volunteered about 25-30lb of meat at the end of each season... which incidentally cost me $140 extra in income taxes when I entered it as income! Now that my operation is maturing I have freezers full of meat constantly. But it started as a way to keep the grass down and mitigate wildfire danger. I’ve seen many of our neighbors lose their home and farm and animals because of careless management of the flora. Your point of telling my neighbor that we are gong to be using the land is actually the conclusion we came to this last year when the pain of the massive destruction was fresh. I put about 300 hours into re-terraforming, discing, weeding, 600 gals of a very weed specific poison that wouldn’t kill the grass or flowers, pulling sagebrush that had been ‘reseeded’ from someone else’s land to mine via horse and finally chemical fertilizing (about 450lbs) overall. I bought a good variety of grasses, legumes and wildflower specific to our area to overseed during the final frost cycles. Last year we had a ‘heat dome’ weather formation that caused a rare (every 100+/- years) 6 weeks of heat ranging from 111F-119F in June and July. Our normal temp for this season is in the 80’s and it was devastating. But it was not the reason for the destruction. This year just seemed right for starting new. I don’t think my friend has a real understanding of pasture management and thinks of it as pseudoscience non-sense. His view is that the horses hooves “cut up the sod and help mix the fertilizer which enriches any pasture….there is no such thing as overgrazing as long as the horses aren’t starving.” And I share that not to denigrate my friend or demean him. He is a great friend. But when I look at my sheep’s needs I now see an entirely different requirement. We now need harvested hay in July and fresh, tender, green, lush balanced nutrition for rotational grazing right up through November. The horses have left the easternmost 1 acre around the barn I allowed him to use as utterly unusable ‘dirt lot’. I have not had the time to even begin to tackle that. It is on a bit of an incline and will require special machinery and long days of hard work by hand. I have been thinking of putting goats back there to control the weed and sage and letting them have the barn. I don’t like goats, don’t want goats but my wife loves goats…soooooo…..
I like the idea of the Scottish long hair cattle. I know them and am familiar with them but it means an added species and Winter housing. I’m sure I could buy in Spring and slaughter in late Fall but that means another added level of complication for pasture and feed. At 60 I’m not sure I have the heart for that…but I’m willing to try anything once! And I do love a good ribeye!
Thanks for all your advice. You have a great handle on what we have been experiencing and what we need to do and hearing my own thoughts re-echoed in someone else’s experience is kind of comforting as I am a physicist and medical specialist by trade and have not always been a farmer. I grew up on farms and am very sold on the regenerative land program and processes. I’m not quite fanatical but time will tell whether I slip into full Joel Salatin mode or not! But for now I’m enjoying slow growth. My seven year plan to reach profitability is pretty much on track and looks like it could happen earlier if I bit the bullet and expand into the neighboring pasture for sale.

 

[Baymule]

Yes, buy the neighbors land that is for sale. There is something called SHEEP MATH. It is a way of counting sheep. Ram equals 1. Ewes equal 1 each. Lambs that will go to slaughter or sale don’t count. Keeper lambs count, but not as a full sheep. Lambs are small, 4 lambs equal 1sheep.

I have 1 ram. I have 13 ewes. 4 have lambs. 7 lambs total. 3 are rams and will go to auction, they don’t count. 4 are ewe lambs, babies, they count as 1 whole sheep. 2 bred ewes are a gift to the family buying the farm. They don’t count. So in actuality I have 1 ram plus 13 ewes plus 7 lambs, minus 3 ram lambs, plus 4 ewe lambs that equals 1 sheep, minus 2 gift ewes. I have 15 sheep. Is that clear? LOL

And THAT is why you need to buy the neighbors land!

 

[farmerjan]

A word to the wise... anything like the meat that you were given was a barter and does not need to appear on any tax form anywhere... The government throws away enough of our money... they don't need to know about anything that is cash or barter....
Unless you have 5 ft snows and -20 temps.. the highlands really do not need any "housing". Their long DOUBLE HAIR coat is designed for cold, wet snowy weather.... a leanto with 2 sides away from the wind would be more than enough. We do not have "housing" for our beef cattle as a rule... the feeder steers can come into the bunk in the barn, but most out on pasture find some cedar trees and such for protection from the worst of it.

I think you are a bit too intense on the worry about an "added level of complication for pasture and feed".... Not criticizing... but just from reading that you are a physicist, and the way you are so precise about things, you are losing out on some of the enjoyment of things and letting things progress a little easier.... the goats might be a good idea to naturally take care of some of the weed problems....
This is a journey, you will never have it perfect... and if you get all the projects done at a greater cost, what will you do then... just look at what is "perfect" and then not have any little projects???? Really, ENJOY what you are doing and realize that everything may not fit a timeline....

A bush hog to mow at optimal times to prevent reseeding is probably more of a friend than you realize.... and there are no chemicals to counter affect the soil microbes....the best of plans can be totally trashed in an unexpected event; don't let yourself get so rigid that you are not flexible to side step or even do a 180 for some different things.

I admire your liking for the friend as a person. You are right, some never understand the land... so to end it on a "good note" with the reseeding you had to do this year, will just be the optimal time for it to stop.

 

[fargosmom]

Just chiming in - a true friend will respect your need to protect your land for your own use. If he doesn't respect your concern for how you want to steward your land, and your friendship suffers as a result, then he wasn't your friend. He was using you.

 

[farmerjan]

Been about a year since the OP posted.... wonder how things have gone?