The sad state of the Caucasian Ovcharka's in U.S.

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Grazer

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I've long been doubting whether I should make this post or not, but today I said to myself: what the heck, maybe this post will save someone a lot of heartache.
For people wondering what LGD breed is this exactly, I made a topic about them not too long ago here:

In short, they are a livestock/property guardian breed that is rapidly becoming popular.
Which wouldn't be such a bad thing if there were good Caucasian shepherd breeders in U.S. But aside from 1, maybe 2, none of them are.

We paid good money for our female, only to end up with a dog that has been battling allergies. The symptoms of her allergies are severe hot spots (also known as moist dermatitis).
She has had 5 separate cases of hot spots in 1 year.
As some of you may know, there is a genetic component to allergies.
The breeder of our female (who we named Phoebe) did not care. And from what I understand our Phoebe is not the only Caucasian shepherd from that kennel with this problem.
I tried to nicely sort this out with the breeder, but it didn't work. The breeder simply did not want to admit that any of her breeding stock have health issues and she was not even remotely interested to get to the bottom of whatever was bothering Phoebe.

But here comes the saddest part: very few of the CO breeders in U.S. & Canada raise their CO's with livestock.
And just as few health test. They do not screen their breeding stock for hip/elbow dysplasia, thyroid, heart or eyes problems. Nothing what so ever.
Sure they all claim their dogs are healthy, but where is the proof? Where are the health test results?
And they charge an obscene amount of money for their puppies.
Money that pretty much goes straight back into their pockets.
They'll try to come up with an excuse and tell you how much it costs them to import a CO puppy of breeding quality, but don't fall for it.
This is not the only rare breed in U.S. and a good breeder will still do all the necessary health and temperament testing. Because they are not in it to make money.

On top of that, you won't believe the drama that goes amongst those breeders. The bad-mouthing, the rumors they start against one another, harassment, name calling, arguments etc..

And who ends up suffering?
That's right, the dogs and the owners who have to pay the huge vet bills or end up with a dog that has poor temperament.

I think the only way this horrible mess will ever stop is if people educate themselves and stop buying puppies from these unethical breeders.
The money of the buyers is what keeps these irresponsible, greedy, power hungry so called breeders going.
None of them (except the few I mentioned earlier in my post) care about preserving or improving the breed.


So: BUYER BEWARE
You have been warned.
And keep in mind that while in Europe there are bad breeders as well, plenty of CO breeders over there do care about the correct temperament and do health test.
You might even end up spending a little less money importing one or flying over to Europe to get the puppy yourself than you would if you'd get one from most CO breeders right here in U.S.

My last tip: always, always visit the breeder in person first, at least once. Check the living conditions of their dogs and check to see if they really raise them with livestock/poultry.
And check the breeder's knowledge. But above all, make them show you all the results from health tests. Put everything in writing, these are very expensive dogs.

I hope you will learn from my mistakes.
 
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bj taylor

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I can't speak to lgd, but I can speak to dealing with breeders & getting taken. we have two german shepherds. two different breeders. paid a lot of money (same amount) for both. the male is a spectacular specimen with solid temperament, good conformation, strong prey drive, but not rabid about it. he would make the perfect search and rescue dog. he will hunt for that item or person till forever. he doesn't know quit. now the female. she mentally inferior, fragile temperament, terrible structure. the breeder came with strong recommendations. like Grazer says "Always visit the breeder first, at least once." I know I won't make that mistake again.
 

Grazer

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Thank you for sharing your experience with us bj taylor.
It's heartbreaking when you pay good money for a puppy, only to end up with a dog that has either health issues, temperament problems or both.
Especially with health issues, it affects the quality of life of that poor dog.
And the vet bills pile up or you have a dog that is not suited to do the job that breed was bred to do.
Now of course sometimes even good breeders produce an inferior dog, but it's the way that breeder behaves after that happens that separates good breeders from the bad ones.

Good breeders will offer (part of the) money back, offer a puppy of the same or greater value for exchange (or when the owner is ready for the next one), or offer to pay (part of the) vet bills etc.
They will want to get to the bottom of it, they will want to get in touch with the vet so they can prevent that problem from happening again.
Bad breeders on the other hand will first deny that you have a sick dog or a dog with a poor temperament, and if you are persistent, they will break all contact with you.
And they'll continue to breed dogs they know have produced inferior puppies in the past.

I would also like to add that most more well known LGD breeds are not sold for a lot of money.
They usually go for anywhere around $200 and $400.
If they come from a working stock and the buyer gets to meet the parents, everything looks good, the breeder is not breeding too often, but rather breeding because he/she wants functional LGD's and because his/hers dogs have the correct temperament and a good confirmation, then I don't think it's odd or wrong if the seller has not health tested the parents of puppies he/she is selling for a very reasonable amount.
After all, these health tests do cost money so one can not expect the breeder to do all that and still keep his/hers puppies cheap.

The problem arises when (like in case with the Caucasian shepherds), we have breeders selling puppies for anywhere between $1800 and $3000 for a puppy with papers and $1600 for a puppy without papers.
Without caring about the health or preserving this breed as a working dog.
For that sum of money they could definitely afford to perform health testing on their breeding stock, but they don't want to. As it will cut in their profits.

So it is up to us, the buyers, to not settle for less and not settle for any breeder that wants over $800 for their puppy without performing all the necessary health testing. Regardless of whether they are a member or even the president of a breed club, as that often means nothing.
And again, if the buyer wants to avoid problems down the road, it is crucial that they (among other things) visit the breeder at least once before they agree to anything.
 

Southern by choice

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Grazer, as usual you are perfectly on the point!

I am so sorry you are having to go through this with Phoebe.

I see this often, and I will say it is a terrible shame. Most people kindof expect that paying for a pup (not a trained- full grown dog) at the tune of $1000-$2000 that the testing would be there.

I have veiwed breeder contracts for others and am always dismayed at a few things, some of what you have mentioned but others such as with papers $1500 w/out papers $750.... this is all about the money... an angle on, well I want a peice of that. These breeders often do not have any testing done.

I also agree 100% on your second posting. If you are looking at 200-400 (600 depending on breed of dog) than you shouldn't expect testing either. Testing costs thousands of dollars, and in the end those pups are going to cost. They should. The average farmer wants the dog down the street that they see doing the job and know it is a good dog and they cannot dish out thousands.

One sure sigh of maybe you should stay away is if the "breeder" has lots of Females but only one male, also on websites where you see perpetual litters, dogs seem to always be available, that should give you pause.

Paying alot of money doesn't mean it is a great dog... likewise, paying a little bit of money doesn't mean you are getting a crappy dog.

@ Grazer- I will e-mail you soon... I am doing some research for you on the issue at hand. :hugs :hugs :hugs
 

Grazer

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You are so right Southern.
These unethical breeders sure do know how to come off as reputable.
They spend a lot of time trying to present themselves as if they really care about their dogs and their puppy buyers, when in reality it is just a ploy to make more sales.
Wish they would invest that much energy into their breeding stock.

And it's true, when a breeder asks one price for puppies with- and another for puppies without the papers, it is usually a huge red flag.
I really love this breed, it is a breed I hope I'll always own, but I honestly do not feel like paying anywhere close to $1600 for one again.
It's just too much money for a dog in my opinion. Plus if something goes wrong it is more bothersome because you feel like you've thrown all that money in vain.

And I think what is most important to take from this topic (especially for people who are considering to pay a large sum of money for an LGD or another breed)
it is to have everything put in writing, ask for results from parents' health testing and meet the breeder and the dogs in person.


Thanks so much for all your kind, thoughtful words and your effort Southern :hugs
 

Southern by choice

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You know Grazer... YOU would make the best breeder! You have a passion and such care... those are the very ones that should breed! Usually they are the ones that won't breed.
I hope you can consider that in the future.

You do a great deal for this rare breed. I have learned so much from you and you are so easy to talk with. Keep up the educating and informing. There are so many breeds that you are very familiar with that I haven't even heard of, I for one am glad there are people like you to walk us through.

I feel so inadequate to even comment because I am so ignorant to the breed.

Yes, the breeder world sure can be cut-throat!:/
 

Grazer

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Thank you, you are too kind Southern!
And you're absolutely right, people who are truly passionate about a breed and truly care usually never end up breeding or rarely ever have litters.
Breeding dogs, when done correctly is very hard and takes a lot of time, money and effort.
Plus when you breed such large dogs, you have to have enough property to house any potential dog your buyer may end up bringing back.
So I don't see myself ever getting involved with breeding lol

I feel like I have learned a lot from you too. You have raised dogs and been involved in that world so much longer than me.
And I just plain enjoy reading this forum. It is so very interesting for me to read about the experiences of others with LGD's (my favorite type of dogs) and how they end up handing any problems that arise.
 

terrilhb

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This is so upsetting to me. People like the people you are all talking about should be banned from ever breeding. I respect you Grazer and Southern by choice for being so honest and willing to educate everyone. We need more people like you both. Hugs to you both.
 

boykin2010

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Great Post! True of a lot of breeds in dogs and other animals...

I have gotten multiple emails from people stating that "Caucasian Ovcharka's or Caucasian Mountain Dog is my DREAM DOG" Please let me know if you have any for sale... Love the pictures of yours!

Well... I have a picture of my Great Pyrenees male on my website and I guess people think that he is their "dream Caucasian Ovcharka." You would think they would be able to tell the difference between the two breeds if they are really looking and searching for one... :/
I don't have any Caucasian Ovcharkas and I don't even breed the Great Pyrenees
 

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bj taylor said:
I can't speak to lgd, but I can speak to dealing with breeders & getting taken. we have two german shepherds. two different breeders. paid a lot of money (same amount) for both. the male is a spectacular specimen with solid temperament, good conformation, strong prey drive, but not rabid about it. he would make the perfect search and rescue dog. he will hunt for that item or person till forever. he doesn't know quit. now the female. she mentally inferior, fragile temperament, terrible structure. the breeder came with strong recommendations. like Grazer says "Always visit the breeder first, at least once." I know I won't make that mistake again.
I so understand this! very sad too. My current GSD had a horrible schutzhund trainer. As a pup she did well and was awarded a VP at the National Sieger. Very good ranking also... then off she went to the trainer. Ruined the dog. I did not own her at the time, I got her after all this... sadly her issues were not that evident at the time I went to see her and got her, I wanted to work her... only later did I get the full story. I was livid with the breeder, but I decided her bloodlines alone and the fact that I train... well... it was best she remain with me. Her confidence was broken in some ways, strong in others. She will not pass a traffic test but I swear she could pass an endurance test! :lol: I believe shock may have been used on her. SO SAD! She has natural/instinctual herding ability and tracking... so we will work with that and she will be awesome!

YEP! I failed to do a thorough evaluation. Completely stupid on my part... happens. She has strong bite, outs well, is highly intelligent but still lacks confidence in some areas. We do have the "face" issues too. NEver ever have I had a shepherd that lacked in anything. We of course have always had good dogs with sound lines. I will say though my LGD's have now stolen my heart...

Grazer wrote- In short, they are a livestock guardian/property protection breed that is rapidly becoming popular.
Which wouldn't be such a bad thing if there were good Caucasian shepherd breeders in U.S. But aside from 1, maybe 2, none of them are.
Grazer do you know if this breeder raises their dogs with livestock? Do you think that a dog of this breed would still do well with livestock even if not coming from livestock guarding parent stock? In other words do you think the natural instinct is still there?
 
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