1. BYH Official Poll: What are the things that you should consider before buying herds?
    CLICK HERE!
    (if you are logged in, this notice can be dismissed using the "x" to the top right of the notice)

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hay Baler - Discussion Thread
    CLICK HERE!
    (if you are logged in, this notice can be dismissed using the "x" to the top right of the notice)

    Dismiss Notice
  3. Dismiss Notice
  4. BYH Picture of the Week (POW) - Submit your Pics Now !!
    Click HERE!
    (if you are logged in, this notice can be dismissed using the "x" to the top right of the notice)
    Dismiss Notice

What is a "puppy mill"

Discussion in 'Livestock Guardians' started by OneFineAcre, Sep 3, 2017.

  1. Sep 3, 2017
    OneFineAcre

    OneFineAcre Herd Master

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,774
    Likes Received:
    7,278
    Trophy Points:
    513
    Location:
    Zebulon, NC
    So how do you define a puppy mill?
    And how do you define a responsible breeder ?
    Are you a responsible breeder and not a puppy mill because you say you are?
    Because you have a blog and website?
    I'm curious
    I have 5 acres and I currently have around 50 goats ( some are Champions)
    And 4 Great Pyrenees guarding them
    We had a litter of pups last year year
    I think we are responsible not someone with 5 acre and 50
    Dogs?
    That's a puppy mill
     
    dejavoodoo114 and promiseacres like this.
  2. Sep 4, 2017
    BlessedWithGoats

    BlessedWithGoats True BYH Addict

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2015
    Messages:
    2,048
    Likes Received:
    1,506
    Trophy Points:
    283
    Location:
    Upper Michigan, USA
    Imo:
    A lot of it depends on how you care for the animals. From what I know about you and your farm, I would not say you are a puppy mill.
    You're not breeding your dogs over and over, not letting the moms have rest in between litters. You don't have your dogs cooped up in filthy small areas. You're not just trying to produce as many pups as you can in order to make money.
    Responsible breeder:
    Has the health of the parents in mind
    Makes sure the pup doesn't leave home at too young of an age
    Is willing to assist the puppies' new owners in answering questions etc, supporting them

    :)
     
    dejavoodoo114, LocoYokel, TAH and 2 others like this.
  3. Sep 4, 2017
    BrendaMNgri

    BrendaMNgri Overrun with beasties

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    The Big Out There, Northern Nevadaa
    https://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/puppy-mills/closer-look-puppy-mills
    Puppy mills usually house dogs in overcrowded and unsanitary conditions, without adequate veterinary care, food, water and socialization. Puppy mill dogs do not get to experience treats, toys, exercise or basic grooming.

    I'm curious.
    How many "dog breeders" regularly having litters of dogs on this forum can say they are licensed and permitted within their county and state?

    I know for a fact I am the only licensed and permitted Spanish Mastiff and Pyrenean Mastiff breeder in the state of Nevada.

    I am, and have been, for several years. It is required in my county. In fact most people would be surprised, that licensing is often
    required in their own counties - they just aren't aware of it, or it is not enforced vigorously. Or they know and are trying to avoid the process. I have a dog customer in my state who even
    listed a fake address on her website for ages in order to hide from authorities the fact that she had a large number of dogs, and was regularly pumping out litters.

    I must pass inspection by my local sheriff, pay fees, and report any changes in my number of dogs.
    I provide proof of vaccinations and de-wormings, and typically go above and beyond what is required.
    When my puppy sales are under a certain amount, which they have been for three years now, I am not required to obtain a state license, and am exempt.
    When the income goes over a certain amount, then I license with the state.

    I know a lot of people breeding dogs in my area who do it under the table. But Facebook is often their undoing, as deputies often troll the for sale pages on local
    pages, and voila, the unlicensed breeders are busted when they start advertising those litters. I know that for a fact.

    It's a pain in the ass, yes, to go through stuff. But when the dust settles, I can sleep at night. Probably better than some.
    It shows I take what I do seriously, I am a professional, and that I care about my dogs enough to go through the hoops.

    Stuff happens to everyone. When you undertake a breeding program, large or small, stuff happens. A puppy miller does not care. They cover stuff up.
    They make their dogs suffer. They are deceptive, they lie and hide things. Its how transparent and honest the breeder is about that stuff,
    that counts. Sickness, diseases, accidents know no boundaries or preferences. I've had my share of tragedies on my ranch and have not hid them. I've had ignorant people make
    rude and abusive and stupid comments about my dog losses out of spite and jealousy, even about my beloved Patron's rare EPI disease. (I'd put a link up to it to educate you but an Admin told me I can't so you guys are just S.O.O.L., sorry.) I have an old Pyr who was diagnosed with cancer last month. You know, how you deal with stuff like this is what separates them with grit, from them without it. Same with honesty. A lot of people out there want to be big shots without paying dues or doing time or walking the walk.

    I will never forget the new deputy tagging along one year with the older one on my inspection day. He looked at my place, my dogs, and said, "Oh, you're not a puppy mill!"
    I said, "Oh, did someone say I was?" He nodded. I get that a lot. Another time, two out of area county sheriffs showed up unannounced to see my dogs, they'd heard about them, and wanted
    to see them. Not two minutes inside she says, "Why, you're not a puppy mill!" Again, same BS from someone (jealous competition I'm sure) who said I was a "puppy mill."

    Here's a photo of those deputies taken that day.

    IMG_4926.JPG

    There are parts of the country infamous for puppy mills because of lax laws; I've been told the Amish are particularly infamous for running puppy mills in some places. The Carolinas are really bad and so is Texas, and up in the NE. California has it's spots too.

    I think I get called a puppy mill by people who are very jealous over the fact that I've put a ton of work into my operation (going on 9 years now) and have become very well known about my dogs and my writing, and my successful training and pack rearing. I came out of nowhere more or less and rose to the top of this profession, and when you are at the top you are an easy target. It's always easy to pick the spiteful and jealous ones out by what they say and how they say it, even on forums like this one. :plbb Yawn, been here, done this, find it sooo passé and immature. Make my day….next?
     

    Attached Files:

    promiseacres and LocoYokel like this.
  4. Sep 4, 2017
    Southern by choice

    Southern by choice Herd Master

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    11,164
    Likes Received:
    10,182
    Trophy Points:
    593
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I don't believe we are allowed under the rules of this forum to post links to animal rights groups such as PETA or ASPCA, HSUS.

    Asking a person their opinion is just that.... giving YOUR opinion not linking to what other say about the subject.

    I don't have time right now but I do not think it is a "one size fits all" just like the infamous "back yard breeder".

    Under the caption that was posted in quotes - yeah, sorry I do know of licensed "kennels" that feed well, give vet care, socialize, have clean facilities and are still a freaking mill!
    That is where the "opinion" part comes in.
    I also know of many more that are not mills.
     
    dejavoodoo114 and LocoYokel like this.
  5. Sep 4, 2017
    Goat Whisperer

    Goat Whisperer Herd Master

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,884
    Likes Received:
    4,500
    Trophy Points:
    363
    Location:
    North Carolina
    There is someone not far from who I consider a mill. From what I've seen they have good facilities and I believe they are licensed but they still have like 15 pyrs on two acres, claiming that they are LGD's. Years ago I know they had a few goats and chickens. I don't think they have any more now (dogs misbehaving… killing stock…fighting…) So 15 "LGD's" on two acres with no livestock. Only two males, the rest are females. They breed their bitches every heat cycle (about 2x a year) and sell their pups for $1200 because folks think they are a "good" breeder. When the dogs start to slow down (having smaller litters-around 6 years old because they are constantly bred) I see them on Craigslist and FB selling these worn out dogs like crazy. Sorry but that IMO is a mill. They also boast about the hundreds of Pyrenees they've produced…
    They also will sell the dogs as LGDs but don't have livestock, do not evaluate, let buyers pick pups from photos, the list goes on. Anyone who breeds dogs for the sole purpose of making money is a mill (there could be a few exceptions, but I can't think of them now). If you are breeding for money you shouldn't be breeding dogs. IMO

    And of course you have the "other" type of puppy mill where they are caged, unhealthy, etc etc.
     
    dejavoodoo114 and LocoYokel like this.
  6. Sep 4, 2017
    OneFineAcre

    OneFineAcre Herd Master

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,774
    Likes Received:
    7,278
    Trophy Points:
    513
    Location:
    Zebulon, NC
    I'm pretty sure I know who you are referring too
     
  7. Sep 4, 2017
    BrendaMNgri

    BrendaMNgri Overrun with beasties

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    The Big Out There, Northern Nevadaa
    FYI that is not a link to PETA or another "animal rights group" so please….take a deep breath. Deeper…. :D

    Below is a quote from another website, again was told we are "NOT" to post links - so here is copy cut and paste description from another source. NOT an animal rights group, either. I like their description of a backyard breeder:

    Backyard breeders
    Backyard breeders are also motivated by profit. Ads from these unscrupulous breeders fill the classifieds. Backyard breeders may appear to be the nice neighbor next door-in fact, even seemingly good-intentioned breeders may treat their breeding pairs as family pets. However, continuously breeding animals for years to produce litters for a profit still jeopardizes the animals' welfare.

    Some backyard breeders may only breed their family dog once in awhile, but they often are not knowledgeable on how to breed responsibly, such as screening for genetic defects. Responsible, proper breeding entails much more than simply putting two dogs together.

    Look for these red flags:
    • The seller has many types of purebreds or "designer" hybrid breeds being sold at less than six weeks old.
    • Breeders who are reluctant to show potential customers the entire premises on which animals are being bred and kept.
    • Breeders who don't ask a lot of questions of potential buyers.
    • No guarantees-responsible breeders make a commitment to take back the pet at anytime during the animal's life, no matter the reason.
    Because puppy mills and backyard breeders choose profit over animal welfare, their animals typically do not receive proper veterinary care. Animals may seem healthy at first but later show issues like congenital eye and hip defects, parasites or even the deadly Parvovirus.
     
    LocoYokel likes this.
  8. Sep 4, 2017
    Southern by choice

    Southern by choice Herd Master

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    11,164
    Likes Received:
    10,182
    Trophy Points:
    593
    Location:
    North Carolina
    ASPCA is one of those groups.
    I don't need to take a deep breathe.
    I have always shown you respect, I expect you to do the same.
    I have been working in the canine industry since the 80's. I am very familiar with training, breeding, health, imports, exports, and the list goes on.
    I also know people can really %^&%$%^$!
    I also know there are many out there that are awesome.


    My point being there are great breeders, terrible breeders, knowledgeable and unknowledgeable breeders.

    You and I agree on many many issues. So... take a deep breath. ;)
     
    dejavoodoo114 likes this.
  9. Sep 4, 2017
    BrendaMNgri

    BrendaMNgri Overrun with beasties

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    The Big Out There, Northern Nevadaa
    This is why I have a stringent application process and insist people complete it or they don't get past the first Email.
    I am always shocked at the number of people who stick noses up in the air over filling out applications. As said in my DGJ article - people should be embracing the fact that the
    breeder cares enough to screen homes for their pups, not the opposite.

    Behind every bad breeder are bad customers who don't care, want it cheap, want it fast, want it close by, who don't keep in touch with their breeder and lean on them for support.
    Those are the people who keep the backyard breeders and puppy mills afloat. They are to be blamed as much as the puppy mill. No one forces them to buy from a puppy mill…...

    "Anyone who breeds dogs for the sole purpose of making money is a mill (there could be a few exceptions, but I can't think of them now)"
    - @Goat Whisperer I don't give my pups away (although I have placed adult dogs at no cost, and have given away a few pups but that is not the norm), and all the reputable good breeders I know of raising LGDs, also don't give their pups away….our time is valuable, so are our bloodlines, methods, work and training that go into producing great dogs…. Do you know what it costs to raise up a great litter of good working guardian pups? Hours and hours, hundreds and hundreds of dollars….usually more often into the 1,000's if C Section required - so all most breeders get in return is usually a return on their investment into the litter. There may be small profits, i.e., "making money" as you put it, but in my case, that all goes back into the dogs - more food, advertising, more vaccines, more vet visits, another import, etc.

    This is especially true today with the flood of backyard breeding going on, fad breeding, etc. I am going to sound like the old hag broken record, but many of you weren't around 9 years ago and didn't have LGDs - 9 years ago, trust me again as said in DGJ article, you had to hunt to find LGDs. They were not common as they have become in past few years. Past few years they have exploded in popularity which has been both good and seriously bad in the big picture. $100 specials on Craigslist - demeaning these dogs by price cutting. A whole new generation of LGD owners placing these dogs on the level of butcher pigs and chickens, i.e. no respect, disposable, etc. Which they are most definitely NOT…..but that is what's happened here. And it's why many reputable breeders are really speaking out now and publicly condemning irresponsible fad based breeding without game plans, purpose, knowledge, experience. LGDs have become the new fad breeds.
     
  10. Sep 4, 2017
    TAH

    TAH Herd Master

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    3,688
    Likes Received:
    2,378
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Being in the search of a puppy I have been looking a bunch...

    My dad wants a Brittany spaniel... There are lots of breeders here but only 2 that I can find responsible.

    If they aren't willing to help you with the pup after it has left there care.

    Lets you pick pups on your own... Someone that knows what they are doing will have a questionnaire on your needs and pick a pup based on that... Or if they are willing to give you a pup even if you can't care for it. One of the breeders (not the two I am looking at) gave a pup to a guy that lived in a Apartment, worked 12hours a day 6 days a week, and had plans to leave the puppy in his home while he was gone... 4-weeks later I see puppy on craigslist.

    For me they should be totally okay (should even offer on there own) with giving you a full run down on what they do, vet records on everything, ALL there dogs, kennels, puppy's, etc.

    Our family learned the hard way with our pup, he came from a shelter, no problem, right?!?! Well turns out he was fixed at 6-weeks, not socialized, sold at 8weeks, had lots of allergies, very temperamental, etc... It has been a 3year long journey to get him to where he is at today... And he still needs everyday training to keep him from going back, being on a raw diet because it was the only thing to keep him from allergies along with a bit of grain free dog food... It is hard but I have learned so much from him I wouldn't trade it for anything...

    Turns out the shelter he was bought from (he was $375 and we got him from friends at 4-months but knew him whole journey) as these breed of dogs every month... Makes me suspicious. Blue heeler/pit/lab.

    @OneFineAcre I personally think there is no issue with what you did, I remember reading thru your journal and seeing your updates on the pups in there new homes, vet visits, etc... I remember thinking that is how it should be done!
     
    LocoYokel and OneFineAcre like this.