Why are Lamancha goats so popular?

[Southern by choice]

@Latestarter because I work with the registry and there is a great deal of misinformation it is important to try to clarify. Not trying to be a butthead. Unfortunately many that are getting involved with minis do get bad info and get angry when they try to register animals based on what then think vs the actual rules.

Other registries as in Kiko, ADGA , Boers do. with the percentages going up til Purebred. The mini registry does not. Because you are not advancing to eliminate a breed.
Now that would apply to my Recorded grade Lamancha... to get her to american or pb in ADGA I have to keep breeding her to a Lamancha.

You are correct GENERALLY most 1st gens are A standard to a dwarf. This always gives 50/50% as well as all goats will have elf ears. No other probability.
% is always calculated using the percentages of sire and dam. To be qualified for Americana or Purebred status the goat must be under 70% of the standard breed and also must qualify by breed character. For the Mini Lamancha that means all bucks must be under the appropriate % as well as have true Gopher ears and the height standard set. Does qualify by % , gopher or elf ears- however elf ears must be under a certain length, and of course must remain under the maximum height standard.
After acheiving The PB staus which cannot be before f-6 the gens do not count higher... IOW no f-7, f-8 or anything like that - although some show that because maybe they are trying to show it is two generations into purebreds status

This year I have several breedings that will be 1st generation however they will be 75/25
The dam is 100% a standard bred to a mini buck he is 50/50. offspring will be 1st gen 75/25 ear probability for this particular mating will be 50/50 gopher/elf
Anytime you breed to a standard or dwarf regardless of 1 parents gen all will be 1st gen.
So, you could have bred 2,3,4,5 generations and still be at an F-1 the percentage will vary.


I personally like the percentage to be as close to 50/50 as possible but sometimes you need to go higher on the standard side then breed back to bring % down.
Breeeding and F-1 50/50 to an F-1 50/50 will give f-2 50/50.

So now lets take my f-2 50/50... hmmm, I want to bring in more breed character and improve ears. I decide to breed to a 1st gen 75/25. I now have a F-2 62.5/37.5 the ids from these will still be 2nd gen. Experimental.
Generation is always 1 generation up from the lowest (Standards and dwarfs are 0)
Percentage is calculated by both parents
American must quailify as 3rd gen (even though you may have 5 generations) not be over 70% have correct breed trait/characteristics, and be within height standard.
Purebred 6th generation and all the above.

Most people that have minis never go past the first or 2nd gen. It is a lot of work to do a breeding program.

On goats in general, there are more than 3 ear types/shapes. On Lamancha goats there are TWO ear types acceptable... "elf" or "gopher" https://articles.extension.org/pages/19274/goat-breeds-lamancha Only the gopher ear is acceptable on a buck for registration purposes Is this incorrect?

Lamancha yes, Miniatures, there are 3.
Because of the breeding of the dwarf which is erect eared you have that gene... when breeding the different ear types you will have probabilty. An elf eared x elf eared can give you erect, elf, gopher. Hence the 3 types. Any erect eared regardless of gen will remain experimental. Bucks with elf as well.

If I breed an f-2 Experimental (elf eared) to an f-2 (experimental erect ear) I will have 50/50 probability elf/erect , no possibility for gopher.
The kids that have erect ears will just be F-3 but remain Experimental (because they don't meet the breed standard) the kids that have elf---- only does will be F-3 American... so no bucks will qualify for American status but will be registered as f-3 experimental as well.

I know it all sound confusing but it really isn't.
My plan is to take my 75/25's from this year and breed to my 50/50 bucks for next year. This will give me that 62.5/37.5 and hopefully lock in some traits I want. I personally care less about generations. In the end I will end up with alot of of 2nd gen gopher eared 62.5/37.5 %.. this is good because then all the gens from those will be 3rd gen Ameriacn and will all qualify. Although I do prefer still the 55/45 range for size.

I have an ear chart on one of my mini threads. It gives all the probabilities.

There are also people that don't want to do a program and like the mini mancha just hate the ears, they love the 2nd gen erect eared minis.

Airplane ears are with mini nubians.

Gosh, why do I do this again?



@OneFineAcre I was agreeing with you.

 

[B&B Happy goats]

I'm so confused.....

 

[Carla D]

Why are Lamancha goats so popular?

Based on the number of animals registered each year with the American Dairy Goat Association, Nigerian Dwarfs are the most popular breed by a long shot
Nubians are second, Alpines third and LaManchas are 4th.
In 2017 there were around 17,000 Nigerians registered around 12,000 Nubians but only around 5000 LaManchas.
These are approximate, I was looking at a bar graph.

http://adgagenetics.org/RegistrationTrends

I tried to simplify the explanation yet stay as close to precise/accurate/correct and understandable as possible...This is not the first time you have done this to me. I don't appreciate it.

"The 1st generation produced from a pure nigie to pure standard is referred to as an f1; it is 50% of each. (This is an absolute.) When you breed an f1 buck (would have to be 50/50 by definition) to an f1 doe (would again have to be 50/50 by definition) the offspring are f2." Is this incorrect?

"f2 animals are considered 75% mini whatevers." I said "whatevers" because it could be 75% nigie as easily as 75% lamancha or any percentage in between for either. Were this a masters or doctoral thesis, the statement would be incorrect as it could be anything from 50/50 to some other percentage in either breed direction based on the actual amount of each breed genes that were passed to the offspring. Without doing an actual DNA/genetic evaluation, you can't possibly know the real percentage of each breed in the f2 and beyond offspring. My statement was based on an ideal/perfect split being passed on for the mini breed you are trying for. This being the case, my mathematical percentages are correct for "registry purposes". In "real life" you breed for expected/unique breed characteristics of each breed and the registry standards for each breed and which breed you are trying to recreate in miniature form. Is this incorrect?

"The third gen is f3s and 87.5% mini. 4th gen is f4 and considered 93.75% mini, 5th gen f5 @ 96.875% and finally gen 6 is f6 @ 98.4375% mini." This is the goal and mathematically correct. The true/ideal percentages are what I posted. (The actual/real percentages can't be known without genetic testing) And once again, not explained at a masters or doctoral thesis level.

I also stated "Normally, much longer as you may need to back breed." The reason being to add back in a higher percentage of the standard breed genes if your F# minis are leaning more toward the nigie side than the standard breed you're trying to produce. Obviously this will skew the percentages from what I stated previously. Is this incorrect?


"There are registry rules as to what is considered a "pure" mini which I'll not try to explain, but if everything is as it should be, @ f6, the offspring are considered "pure". f7 and beyond are 99% or higher." Stating something needs to be "UNDER" a certain percentage of one is mathematically the same as stating that is must be OVER a percentage of the other. I clearly stated that there are registry rules and that I would not try to explain them. Once again, based on the ENTIRETY of my post vice taking a sentence or two out of context, Is this incorrect?


On goats in general, there are more than 3 ear types/shapes. On Lamancha goats there are TWO ear types acceptable... "elf" or "gopher" [URL]https://articles.extension.org/pages/19274/goat-breeds-lamancha

Only the gopher ear is acceptable on a buck for registration purposes Is this incorrect?



"A mini could weigh (<--Emphasis added by me) anywhere from ~70# to 150. The full sized are typically from ~100-250#+. obviously the largest weights are associated with the males." Is this incorrect? Thank you for providing some more narrowed down/specific mini weight details from a breeder's perspective.

Carla D, your last post is right on the money. You don't need expensive, registered goats for normal, everyday life. Mutts are just fine for any and all applications save one. Mutts can't be used to show, in breed specific shows. That being said, and before I get jumped on once again, that isn't entirely true either. "Mutts" CAN be "registered" as "experimental" or "grade" with some registries as long as the sire is/was a registered animal, or can be tracked back to one. Again, it's rather convoluted and I don't feel like going to in depth on that explanation either. If it's that important to you, you can research it for exact/specific details with the applicable registry.

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This was an interesting website. Some breeds have definitely grown in popularity over time and some have significantly declined as well. I need to figure out what the abbreviations on the graph mean to totally understand the trends. But I do like the charts.

I also didn’t mean to ask a question that would cause contention between a few members in here. I was only trying to figure out how the offspring between two different breeds could possibly wear the title of pure or registered. It didn’t make sense to me. It kinda seemed to me that it was like mating a Maine Coon cat with a Siamese cat and getting a Siamaine and it being pure. It didn’t add up to me. But from what I’ve gathered through these explainations is that with a lot of time and money you are creating a designer breed that has become so popular that it has become “desired or much sought after” animal that due to popularity it has become a “registered and accepted designer breed”. And then each breeder is creating their version of perfection. That the creation of such matings that these two breeders have breed are “different strains or kissing cousins”. Am I kinda getting it?

 

[Carla D]

I'm so confused.....

Me too. I guess it is a common layman’s question that actually has a very complex answer. I’m a bit to layman to understand the answer. To me they will never really be “pure” but a “designer”. I do however understand the percentages. A 1:1=50/50, a 50/50:1=75/25?

 

[Southern by choice]

I'm so confused.....

I know right!
I was looking for a chart that is an easy guide to generations.
I have an probability chart on here some where.
Of course that is just part of the "rules" LOL


You should see the pages of info on the registry. IMO it does need to be simplified. LOL

Me too. I guess it is a common layman’s question that actually has a very complex answer. I’m a bit to layman to understand the answer. To me they will never really be “pure” but a “designer”. I do however understand the percentages. A 1:1=50/50, a 50/50:1=75/25?

50/50 to a 50/50 is a 50/50
a 75/25 to a 50/50 is 62.5/37.5
a 62.5/37.5 to a 50/50 is 56.25/43.75

The Standard percentage is always listed first, dwarf second.
So lets say I have a 56.25/43.75 but don't have a mini buck so I use a dwarf... the percentage is 56.25/43.75(mini) bred to a 0/100 (dwarf) that gives me= 28.12 /71.88

When the standard size shrinks below the 50% it is really difficult to breed back to a mini because the size.


So the standard % is added together divided by 2 & the dwarf % is added together and divided by 2. This gives you your percentage.

 

[B&B Happy goats]

Honestly, i plan to keeping it simple for myself .... just going to stick with my kids @ 1 buck & 1 doe = happy nigerian dwarf goat momma

 

[OneFineAcre]

This was an interesting website. Some breeds have definitely grown in popularity over time and some have significantly declined as well. I need to figure out what the abbreviations on the graph mean to totally understand the trends. But I do like the charts.

I also didn’t mean to ask a question that would cause contention between a few members in here. I was only trying to figure out how the offspring between two different breeds could possibly wear the title of pure or registered. It didn’t make sense to me. It kinda seemed to me that it was like mating a Maine Coon cat with a Siamese cat and getting a Siamaine and it being pure. It didn’t add up to me. But from what I’ve gathered through these explainations is that with a lot of time and money you are creating a designer breed that has become so popular that it has become “desired or much sought after” animal that due to popularity it has become a “registered and accepted designer breed”. And then each breeder is creating their version of perfection. That the creation of such matings that these two breeders have breed are “different strains or kissing cousins”. Am I kinda getting it?

The abbreviations are Purebred, American, and Recorded Grade
The ADGA does not register the "mini's"

Nigerian Dwarf is a Purebred only herd book

 

[Carla D]

The abbreviations are Purebred, American, and Recorded Grade
The ADGA does not register the "mini's"

Nigerian Dwarf is a Purebred only herd book

Thank you..

 

[Southern by choice]

But from what I’ve gathered through these explainations is that with a lot of time and money you are creating a designer breed that has become so popular that it has become “desired or much sought after” animal that due to popularity it has become a “registered and accepted designer breed”. And then each breeder is creating their version of perfection. That the creation of such matings that these two breeders have breed are “different strains or kissing cousins”. Am I kinda getting it?

Not exactly a designer breed. The Miniature Dairy Goat Asssociation was established in 1996.
The motivation was to have simply a smaller version of the Standard Breed. Many loved the personalities and production of the Larger goats just not the size. The use of the dwarf brings the size down.
Basically that high production and basic breed character in a smaller package. The Dwarf for many just cannot produce enough and for many is just too small.
The dwarf however doesn't just contribute to bring size down it brings with it that undeniable hardiness and easy keeping, as well as that higher butterfat. They really are a critical part of the minis.
I think far too many overlook the importance of the Dwarf in the breeding program.

In the AGS (the registry that accepted the ND's originally) and the ADGA have closed herdbooks so no crosses allowed. That was the agreement to admitting the Nigerian Dwarf into the ADGA registry.
Whereas in the ADGA other standard breeds can be crossed and are called experimentals, some are recorded grades depending on pedigree. You can breed an registered Alpine to a Registered Lamancha and they will be Recorded Grade/Experimentals. That cross would be a 50/50... if you continue to breed to the Lamancha the percentage will go up... that is what @Latestarter was referring to. That doesn't apply to minis, but does apply to the ADGA registry. Sometimes people want to bring in certain genetics or traits etc. This is just not allowed with Nigerians in that registry.
So it is isn't any different, not designer just breeding goats. The Lamancha was developed by many breeds.

This is why there are complete separate registries for Minis.
22 years later there are lots of minis out there, yet there are only a small percentage that breed for improvement and a breeding program, just like the other registries.
The MDGA has programs for milkstars, has breed requirements, and is currently working on an evaluation program similar to linear appraisal program. They also have live shows and virtual shows.

Typically the mini nubians are more costly for a very well bred animal, and even a not so well bred animal. The lower generations usually less expensive because most want that floppy ear that is in later gens.
The mini manchas are the 2nd in numbers - IMO they really aren't that expensive. A doe depending on quality can range from $200-$400. Bucks are anywhere from $150- $400 depending on quality , gen, and other factors.

 

[rachels.haven]

*gasp!* Wait, I feel the need to say this:
Lamanchas ugly? I think they're beautiful, and I think they think so too! They would be outraged if they could read this (insert image of googly eyed goat getting on the internet). They were my breed of choice and I would have gotten them instead of dwarfs were it not for the fact that our acre is in town and our neighbors were convinced that our goats would walk on their precious, barely ever used Ford trucks (we're by Dearborn and Detroit). It was a lot easier to convince people that the goats would not escape and threaten their precious, spotless F250 commuter truck if the goats were under two feet tall (our goats still have not escaped yet) BUT I still think Lamanchas are quite pretty and plan to add at least one someday.

All goats are goofy. I am not convinced their eyes always point in the same direction and they're always finding new ways to get into goofy trouble, it seems like one end is always belching for passing wind and pebbles and peeing WHILE they're still being so loveable and freaking cuddly. Ears vs. tiny or no ears doesn't make a lot of difference, but the lack does draw attention to their beautiful long dairy necks and stunning eyes. Who needs ears anyway?

But hey, I'm not really offended. I'd rather go outside and play with my goats.

(EXCEPT I'M ON VACATION AND AWAY FROM MY GOATS AND THE NEIGHBOR GETS TO LOVE ON THEM INSTEAD. )