Why Does She Do This?

[SkyWarrior]

I have a beautiful 17 yo quarter horse mare whom I got from rescue. I know the previous owners because she wasn't in dire circumstances at all, the fellow just knows the rescue people and helps them out.

Rock is sometimes pretty difficult. I've been consistent with her while riding, never letting her win, but she challenges me a lot. Her tricks are balking and turning around on the trail, pitching a fit when she doesn't want to do something, and backing up, sometimes in a very dangerous spot near a cliff.

Each time, I've circled her or urged her forward. I've consistently won each argument, but I'm getting tired of the pitching a fit.

Physically, she's fine. I had to get her shod because her feet are tender, but a vet has given her a clean bill of health. Last year before it got too icy to ride, I got her to the point where she stopped pulling her shenanigans and listened to me. I lost most of June due to me being sick, her having a tendon injury (it's clear and good according to the vet) and her tender toes that I discovered she needed shoes.

We ride 2-3 times a week. I've started lunging her before I get in the saddle so she gets her head into me being in charge (and getting the ya-yas out). I sometimes lunge her when we get back and I have been letting her stand saddled for 15-30 minutes before taking it all off and giving her the freedom she wants.

She still tries to balk and turn around, although this last time it was a half-hearted maneuver. I've tried different bits, and ended up settling on an egg-butt, myler sweet iron snaffle with copper roller and a curb chin chain (seems to help cut down on shenanigans). She was on a sweet-iron snaffle. I've also tried a more controlling bit on her (sweet iron curb with roller) but it makes her too antsy. I do keep a riding crop with me, just in case.

So, I'm wondering if this behavior was learned at another time. I'm wondering what I can do to diminish her stupid antics. Thoughts?

 

[CritterZone]

She has been rewarded for her antics in the past. She is not a young girl and she didn't learn this habit overnight, and it will probably take you a little time to convince her that you are not going to give in. Keep taking her out and don't let her get away with the games. It will only take a moment of weakness on your part to reinforce her behavior so stay strong!

Are there certain places where she tends to try to turn around? If there are, what you can do is urge her to pick up her pace a bit as you near that spot, and encourage her to keep moving past it. Try to vary your route as much as possible so she doesn't get bored, and that will also help to keep her on her toes.

Good luck and stay safe

 

[SkyWarrior]

She has been rewarded for her antics in the past. She is not a young girl and she didn't learn this habit overnight, and it will probably take you a little time to convince her that you are not going to give in. Keep taking her out and don't let her get away with the games. It will only take a moment of weakness on your part to reinforce her behavior so stay strong!

Are there certain places where she tends to try to turn around? If there are, what you can do is urge her to pick up her pace a bit as you near that spot, and encourage her to keep moving past it. Try to vary your route as much as possible so she doesn't get bored, and that will also help to keep her on her toes.

Good luck and stay safe

Thanks for the reply!

I suspected this was the issue. She acts like a green horse sometimes; dreadfully fearful of any new path. But then, she pulls this stuff. I know she was pretty much a pasture ornament except when the family who owned the ranch came to visit, a couple of times a year. But I've seen some really good moves with this girl in an arena, so I know she's capable.

On balking and turning: Sometimes she'll choose a new spot; other times, she choose a spot we've turned before. I try to get her to trot up where the shenanigans have been in the past, but it's infuriating, and sometimes downright dangerous when she gets in a mood. She'll stop and turn or back up even with encouragement. So, I either get her to swing back around, or if the trail is iffy in that place (and yeah, she knows the narrow spots!) I ride her to a safe place and turn her back. Sometimes it takes 5 or 6 turns before she gets the idea she isn't going to win.

I've noticed that the more I keep her on paths she knows and won't freak her out too much, the better she becomes to the point where I can choose new trails. So sometimes I'm stuck with the trails around home until she proves to me she's not going to do something stupid.

 

[goodhors]

Guess it depends on how much you feel like "correcting" her behavior, and
working to get the tiny steps of progress you appear to be receiving from
her. Sounds like you can see an improvement since you got her, but you
are STILL having issues to deal with that are difficult, almost daily.

Lunging beforehand can be helpful, but it DOES make her more fit so she
can keep herself going longer! Not criticizing, you gotta do what you gotta
do to stay as safe as possible!!

My thought comes down to "Do you like the CONSTANT challenge of riding
this horse, or is it wearing on you, takes the fun out of going riding?" Do you
find yourself slowing down to finish OTHER stuff before going riding? Do you
put off rides, because you just don't want to argue with that horse today?

I know folks who mostly gave up riding, because their horse was not fun
to go out with. Waiting for "today's blowup" on the ride, was stressful
instead of the enjoyment you get from going out on the trail.

However, you getting horse to do as requested, watching her progress from
about unusable outside the pasture, to being able to use her in many more
places, can be rewarding. Maybe you don't mind the constant corrections of
behavior, feel empowered getting her to do what you ask.

For myself, I don't particularly want to be correcting my horse all the time,
each time out. I expect horse to "get it", make progress in being brave,
FORWARD on the trail, especially one they are sort of familiar with. I expect
the training to "stick" because horse IS SMART enough to figure out they
won't win the arguments. I DON'T LIKE fighting with my horse, since
we are a TEAM, with me directing, horse doing the work. Sorry, horse gets
no vote in choices, but is certainly not being abused in asked to go along
getting in some trail miles either.

So I would be looking at horse who is NOT happy doing as asked, and think
that I could have a LOT MORE FUN using another animal. We obviously have
not turned into a good Team over this LONG TIME, if horse argues all the time,
is resistant with poor behavior in almost every area of things we do. Very
possible we just are not going to be "that compatible" no matter how hard
I work at it! And it sounds like you have given 150% effort, but horse
is not improving much at THIS job you want her to do, Trail Riding.

SOMETIMES the person and horse are just not a "couple or Team" and it
is not EVER going to get much better. You are not compatible. So it might
be time to get a horse who LIKES and does Trail Riding better, works easier
for you, so you can enjoy the experience without so much work. You can
sell, trade, return the mare to the Rescue, if you don't wish to have a
horse you won't be using. She could be an excellent ring horse to take
to Shows, no scary stuff in the ring,. She just needs a firm rider to deal with
her antics and not let her win.

Unless you enjoy the arguing, small progress in her improvements you have to
for the reward, I would seriously consider selling her for another horse who is
a better fit to your plans in riding.

At our house we have a saying, "There are TOO MANY NICE horses out there,
to put up with a horse who is NO FUN to use". If we are not having a fun
time enjoying what a horse can do for us, horse who is nice to deal with in
the barn, good personality, then that horse is sold on. We have been thru
the unthinking excuses for NOT GOING OUT, not using the horse, because
we DID have to fight horse for EVERY progressive step. What a fun wrecker
SHE WAS!! Once we caught on to the problem, that horse was sold, so we
went back to have fun with NICE horses to use. We have met a couple other
NO FUN horses since the first one, and they didn't stay very long at all. They
were pretty, good athletes, but to get them to work was an enormous effort
EVERY TIME out. They got sold on, went to other horse uses, and did fine
with their new owners.

Don't think of it as "quitting or giving up" on the horse. Think "horse was
unsuitable for the job I want in Riding". Get a horse who LIKES to go
Trail Riding, enjoys being handled, so you get the FUN back in your horse
activities. Riding shouldn't be work forever, horse should show VAST
improvement in the long time you have put into it. With most horses,
you don't go back to square one, with some time off, have to start over again.
With good basics on the horse, not being worked just means they haven't
learned MORE since the last workout or Trail Ride, not backslid!!

Anyway, my take on the horse you are dealing with. At 17yrs, she is not
at the end of her life, horses live lots longer, stay healthy to use for a good
long time yet. Don't be guilted into keeping this mare, unless you WISH
to, she might be wonderful for someone else to use. But you DESERVE
to have a horse you can enjoy going out with, so look around, choose
CAREFULLY to find another partner. I am not big on looking at Rescue
places, because I hear about all the problems their horses have for people
to deal with. I tend to just buy a horse after hunting around, trying them
out in the uses I will be doing with that horse. Buying confidence can
depend on your horse knowledge, skills as a horse person.

Trail horses locally tend to be advertised thru Trail Riding Clubs, their Newsletters,
where people are looking for those skills in their next animal. So maybe
looking in those areas could be helpful to you. Be picky, having a list of
things you want on a horse can be helpful. STICK to your list on those good
qualities, because you have put them down for a reason! Horse who STANDS
for mounting, is a big deal to my older riding friends. No stepping off or hopping
to get on for them. Easy to catch in the field, short to saddle and step up into
a stirrup, are on their lists. Each person has their own list for their own
reasons.

Keep us informed, whatever you choose to do. Sorry, I got carried away on the topic!!

 

[SkyWarrior]

Thanks for the reply, goodhors!

I'll be honest, occasionally I have thought about trading her for another horse, but I'm kind of stubborn and she has grown on me. The antics are annoying as heck, but I do see some improvement. Our last ride was good for her. Yes, she threatened to turn around, but I gave her definite commands to go forward and she complied. I think she needs constant feedback to keep her doing the right thing.

I've taught her a lot since I got her. She will come when I call her. I can get her to pick up each foot with a verbal command. I can get her to move her front or rear end away from me on verbal commands. I've been able to get her to comply with minimal leg and rein cues. So, I am seeing some improvement. I just wish she didn't act so green.

I really thought I had gotten past the antics after last year, but she seems to be one of those who goes back to her old ways when she's off for a couple of months. That is really annoying and having to retrain her problems out is getting somewhat old. But, I've trained sled dogs and stubborn Malamutes, so I really don't believe in giving up on a critter. Call me stupid, but part of it is I really think she has potential if I can just get through her thick skull. But it's weird that the training won't stick after some rest time, and if I want to use her for hunting, she's got to get better than this.

My request was partial venting and a call for ideas to get her past this stupid behavior. I think I'm doing the right things, but I can always learn new techniques.

I noticed that lunging her a bit makes her focus more on me (good) and improves her disposition, so I lunge her a bit before and after riding. The lunging afterward is to treat her barn sourness, as is keeping her saddled for 15 to 30 minutes afterward.

I really can't afford to play switch the horse until I find one that works for me. I am far from rich. Furthermore, I'm convinced that there are no perfect horses out there, at least none that I can afford.

I will keep your suggestions in mind as I continue to ride her. If she gets too weird or refuses to improve again, I may have to look for a different horse.

 

[MDres]

You may also want to look closely at your saddle fit and placement.

Many of the behaviors you describe can be attributed to poor fitting tack. A proper fitting saddle goes beyond what most people typically expect. There are lots of good instructional videos online, and on Youtube, that can teach you what to look for. Also, if you have a local saddle FITTER, they can be a wealth of knowledge. Don't expect all employees of a "tack shop" to know squat about proper fitting, as many don't have a clue. Changing pad types and adding pads is not the solution to every poor fitting saddle - sometimes it just makes things worse.

 

[SkyWarrior]

You may also want to look closely at your saddle fit and placement.

Many of the behaviors you describe can be attributed to poor fitting tack. A proper fitting saddle goes beyond what most people typically expect. There are lots of good instructional videos online, and on Youtube, that can teach you what to look for. Also, if you have a local saddle FITTER, they can be a wealth of knowledge. Don't expect all employees of a "tack shop" to know squat about proper fitting, as many don't have a clue. Changing pad types and adding pads is not the solution to every poor fitting saddle - sometimes it just makes things worse.

I'll check into that. Thanks!

 

[SkyWarrior]

Well, we rode them up to our next goal, which was where the trail split into a Y. Rocket did really well until we got her past where we had turned her previously, and then she threw fits. I decided that I would simply wait her out and then ask for her to continue along the trail. When we didn't go back, she eventually turned forward and headed up the trail.

This time, I decided to take her to a place to turn around outside the trails we normally go. So instead of taking the left branch of the Y, we took the right and not only did I turn her when we were way out of sight of the main trail, but also turned her again to go up that trail and then again back. We did that three times before resting. By the third circle, she had given up arguing with me.

She did try to turn around to avoid the big hill going toward home. She doesn't like hills. This is the Rocky Mountains, we have them. We're riding tomorrow. I'm hoping less resistance. Wish me luck.

 

[SkyWarrior]

Well, for those of you who don't know, I ended up 30 feet down a ravine with a severe concussion, dislocated shoulder and elbow, and a broken neck bone (but nothing that would cause paralysis, thankfully).

No, I don't know what happened. We're guessing she bolted down the hill. I was conscious but I don't remember any of it. Basically I'm recuperating from a serious fall.

Yeah, I think she's going to be sold as an arena horse, experience rider only. She's good in the arena; bad on trails. She's basically a good horse, but not what I need.

Sigh...

 

[treeclimber233]

This is a bit late. Sorry to hear (read) about your accident. But I definitely agree with goodhors. You need a horse that "wants to work for you". Not all horses are a good fit for every person. I bought a horse that I had ridden in an arena for several weeks. She seemed "hot" but manageable. After I got her home and word got around that I had bought this mare my horsey friends started telling me how this mare was an outlaw. Totally unrideable (sp). Crazy. You name it and every horrible word to describe this horse was used. After I had her for a while and she learned to like and trust me she turned out to be a pretty good horse. She just did not like men to ride her and would really misbehave under saddle. I bought her from a male horse trainer that used force to train and control. What I am saying is she was not a good fit for men or anyone that wanted to force her to do something. I eventually figured out she did not like a bit so I retrained her to voice commands. I just talked to her to control her speed and tried not to use the reins for anything but turning. What it all goes back to is she liked me and wanted to work for me.