Wow, Anyone Have Advice?

[KaleighMaeA]

Well, recently I have found myself in a bit of a conundrum. I have been wanting to breed my male and female sarp in the next year or so (i've posted about this previously). Anyway, to get ready for that I sent in my males UKC paperwork and it got approved. Well I took my female to the vet again to get her all checked out. The vet told me he did not think she had great pyr in her. I tracked down the man I bought her from in Eastern Kentucky. What I found out was pretty interesting. When he sold her to me he told me her had dad was 1/2 and 1/2 making her 1/4th great pyr. Come to find out he said the reason he told me that was because her dad was a lot lighter colored than any other sarp he'd seen. Her dad was apparently passed between three owners and he doesn't have his real lineage. Well sarplaninacs do come in white, so the fact that he was lighter does not mean he had great pyr in him. I know DNA testing isn't recognized by UCK and CKC as a way to 100% prove your dog is full bred, and I have not found a DNA test that will test for Sarplaninac. After all the information I've gotten I am almost 100% sure she is actually full sarp, and the CKC after reviewing her photos has agreed and is going to register her.

I realize most people would say OK you're good then what's the problem? I just really DO NOT want to misrepresent the breed I have in any way. Can anyone think of any other way I can make sure this is fact instead of just being 98% sure?

Thank you for any advice you may have.

 

[redtailgal]

x

 

[carolinagirl]

I agree with Redtail. Forget CKC. Most reputable breeders recognize them for what they are.....a way to make unsuspecting people think they are getting something more valuable. I think they were invented mostly for puppy mill folks because customers seem to place a high value on that piece of paper. If i was buying a puppy of any breed, I place as much stock in CKC registration as I would NO registration. If you are selling these dogs as LGD pups, people don't care so much about papers anyway. Even if she is 1/4 pyr, her offspring will only be 1/8 pyr. And since pyr IS a LGD breed, who cares? Advertise the pups as 7/8 Sarplaninac and tell folks who call that there is a good chance that they are pure bred but that you don't have proof of that. That should be good enough for anyone!

 

[Roll farms]

I agree with Redtail. Forget CKC. Most reputable breeders recognize them for what they are.....a way to make unsuspecting people think they are getting something more valuable. I think they were invented mostly for puppy mill folks because customers seem to place a high value on that piece of paper. If i was buying a puppy of any breed, I place as much stock in CKC registration as I would NO registration. If you are selling these dogs as LGD pups, people don't care so much about papers anyway. Even if she is 1/4 pyr, her offspring will only be 1/8 pyr. And since pyr IS a LGD breed, who cares? Advertise the pups as 7/8 Sarplaninac and tell folks who call that there is a good chance that they are pure bred but that you don't have proof of that. That should be good enough for anyone!

x2 on what she said, and x3 on CKC. I have a poodle w/ CKC papers. I burned them and got him fixed. Same as no papers to me. Anytime I see "CKC registered" I think "Why bother?"

I don't believe your dogs are 'working' farm dogs, though I could be wrong...Just haven't seen you post about them guarding anything but humans.

I don't have any plans to breed our Pyr female again. One out of 11 pups ended up killing a goat kid (owner's fault, not the dog's fault, they were warned to never leave pups alone w/ kids...) and went to the pound, even though I asked that any 'problem' pups be returned for rehab.
One got hit by a car and is now a 3-legged house dog.
1 has disappeared.

Giant dogs are the hardest to rehome. 60% of large / giant breeds bought as 'pets' end up being rehomed / dumped at rescues.

I had hoped that if I found only working homes for them, as opposed to pet homes, that all of mine would end up working (job security = good chance at a healthy, happy life)....not so. I'm not gonna contribute any more to the overflowing rescues.

 

[kstaven]

Please refer to this sticky. http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13715

 

[KaleighMaeA]

A dog cannot be declared fullbred by just looking at them, and given the history of the dog in question, I would be very very cautious about representing that dog as a full bred dog.

As for CKC, are you refering to Continental Kennel Club? If you are, be very careful in dealing with them. They will register anything, despite what their paperwork says. I used to raise Doberman, and on more than one occasion, someone would bring their CKC bitch to be bred to my stud. One of them actually had LONG HAIR. It was marked like a dobe, but with the hair of a Newfoundland. NOT a purebred dobe. After seeing several CKC dogs, both male and female, I ended up refusing to breed to anything CKC. I also have a friend who has a dalmation/lab cross. She was there, saw the breeding, delivered the puppies, and choose to keep this pup. He is a registered lab according to CKC, he looks more dalmation than lab. I know of other dogs that are mixbred, but are registered CKC because they LOOK purebred. I know for a fact that one of them (a lab) has a pitbull for a grandfather. Be cautious when dealing with them.

All that being said, what is the purpose for breeding these dogs? Are they working dogs, as in working on your farm? Are you hoping to breed to get more good farm/guardian dogs? If this is the case, then papers arent really needed. Are you trying to get papers on these dogs because you think the papers would bring in more money per pup? I hope not, for this would be wrong. To sell a papered pup is to imply a purebred animal, something that you cannot be postive off. Without full disclosure of the parentage of the parents, it would dishonest to sell these pups as papered. But, that full disclosure is going to lower the price of your your pups, so I just cant see an advantage to the papering process for you.

Honestly, and bluntly, there is NO way for you to prove the lineage of this dog, and there is no way that you can get her a proper registration. Why not sell them for what they are........PROBABLY purebred, unpapered, good dogs.........and save your reputation in the dog world. Later on, you may have some properly papered dogs that you would like to sell.

Thank you for the great advice. I am refering to CoKC, I was not thinking when I did not specify that before. I do not have a farm, my grandfather does and my dogs go up every weekend while we are up there. (About an hour and a half away). Truely the only main reason I want to breed them is because of how rare the breed is, and my dogs are like children to me I would love to see the puppies they would produce. Additionally, prior to these dogs all of my dogs have been rescues. I was kind of against breeding before simply because of the number of dogs in shelters. However, it's kind of my personal belief the type of people who want this dog are usually truely interested in this specific breed and I haven't found a single one available for adoption in the US so I don't feel like I'm taking away another dogs chance if you follow that odd logic? I think my best bet is to really get my detective hat on and see if I can't get in touch with the second owner of my female's parents (the third owner is the man I got my female puppy from) and see if he has any more specific information and if not maybe I can track down the first owner. Even if I get CoKC papers in I don't want to advertise her as purebred until I can verify that through her parent's prior owners.

Hopefully I can get all that information this weekend!

 

[KaleighMaeA]

I agree with Redtail. Forget CKC. Most reputable breeders recognize them for what they are.....a way to make unsuspecting people think they are getting something more valuable. I think they were invented mostly for puppy mill folks because customers seem to place a high value on that piece of paper. If i was buying a puppy of any breed, I place as much stock in CKC registration as I would NO registration. If you are selling these dogs as LGD pups, people don't care so much about papers anyway. Even if she is 1/4 pyr, her offspring will only be 1/8 pyr. And since pyr IS a LGD breed, who cares? Advertise the pups as 7/8 Sarplaninac and tell folks who call that there is a good chance that they are pure bred but that you don't have proof of that. That should be good enough for anyone!

x2 on what she said, and x3 on CKC. I have a poodle w/ CKC papers. I burned them and got him fixed. Same as no papers to me. Anytime I see "CKC registered" I think "Why bother?"

I don't believe your dogs are 'working' farm dogs, though I could be wrong...Just haven't seen you post about them guarding anything but humans.

I don't have any plans to breed our Pyr female again. One out of 11 pups ended up killing a goat kid (owner's fault, not the dog's fault, they were warned to never leave pups alone w/ kids...) and went to the pound, even though I asked that any 'problem' pups be returned for rehab.
One got hit by a car and is now a 3-legged house dog.
1 has disappeared.

Giant dogs are the hardest to rehome. 60% of large / giant breeds bought as 'pets' end up being rehomed / dumped at rescues.

I had hoped that if I found only working homes for them, as opposed to pet homes, that all of mine would end up working (job security = good chance at a healthy, happy life)....not so. I'm not gonna contribute any more to the overflowing rescues.

I am a 23 year old female, so you're correct I do not own a farm. My grandfather does and my step dad as well. They are out at my grandpa's farm almost every weekend and my step dad's about once a month. I joined this forum mainly for the information I could learn, and to get some oppinions from people who know a lot more than me.

I don't feel like I am going to contribute to overflowing rescues because most people who would be interested in my dogs are interested because of what breed they are. If they just wanted an LGD and had no personal reasons for wanting this breed above others I don't really see why they would want one of my puppies since other breeds are much more readily available. Also, I am big on adopting dogs, and I have not found a single Sarplaninac for adoption in the united states. Therefore I don't feel like I am contributing to a problem with the breed. I would want the people who adopted my puppies to return them if they had any problems.

I didn't realize posting this would cause hostilities, I apologize.

 

[KaleighMaeA]

Please refer to this sticky. http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13715

CoKC, sorry missed that sticky! My fault!

 

[kstaven]

No problem.

 

[bluemini]

I agree with Redtail. Forget CKC. Most reputable breeders recognize them for what they are.....a way to make unsuspecting people think they are getting something more valuable. I think they were invented mostly for puppy mill folks because customers seem to place a high value on that piece of paper. If i was buying a puppy of any breed, I place as much stock in CKC registration as I would NO registration. If you are selling these dogs as LGD pups, people don't care so much about papers anyway. Even if she is 1/4 pyr, her offspring will only be 1/8 pyr. And since pyr IS a LGD breed, who cares? Advertise the pups as 7/8 Sarplaninac and tell folks who call that there is a good chance that they are pure bred but that you don't have proof of that. That should be good enough for anyone!

x2 on what she said, and x3 on CKC. I have a poodle w/ CKC papers. I burned them and got him fixed. Same as no papers to me. Anytime I see "CKC registered" I think "Why bother?"

I don't believe your dogs are 'working' farm dogs, though I could be wrong...Just haven't seen you post about them guarding anything but humans.

I don't have any plans to breed our Pyr female again. One out of 11 pups ended up killing a goat kid (owner's fault, not the dog's fault, they were warned to never leave pups alone w/ kids...) and went to the pound, even though I asked that any 'problem' pups be returned for rehab.
One got hit by a car and is now a 3-legged house dog.
1 has disappeared.

Giant dogs are the hardest to rehome. 60% of large / giant breeds bought as 'pets' end up being rehomed / dumped at rescues.

I had hoped that if I found only working homes for them, as opposed to pet homes, that all of mine would end up working (job security = good chance at a healthy, happy life)....not so. I'm not gonna contribute any more to the overflowing rescues.

I would have to agree there,I seen 2 great pry. at the shelter not long ago,around here people breed them and sell them for pets then when they get tired of them they dump them at the pound .... thats just here .


And there is no way to tell unless you DNA test or have papers,but im not familar with the breed so I could be wrong but thats how it was with my pitbull .