Another question about my slow-growing kids

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Coccidiosis may or may not be a culling factor in your herd plan but if I have to give ANY goat special treatment then they are a candidate for culling.

I realize I'm asking for it but... feeding medicated feed isn't 'special treatment'?

That's what I was arguing. I'm in total agreement with you relics about genetics determining parasite resistance and growth rates all other factors being equal but I'm saying it might be good to hold off on culling until all other things ARE equal. Unless you were breeding specifically for goats that can thrive without coccidiosis preventative and creep feeding, it seems like you should at least level the playing field BEFORE you started culling.

 

[Roll farms]

 

[()relics]

No its $ 4.50 more per ton than non medicated feed. monensin is actually thought to be a digestion aid...medicated feed is common sense. Coccidiosis is a kid killer, why not try to control it All the Time before it becomes a real problem. All my goats get it All the time, amounts vary but if they get a feed concentrate its medicated. I would label anything above that as "special treatment"

 

[Ariel301]

Interesting reading....

As far as sweet feed versus a goat feed....NOBODY within a hundred miles of where I live sells any goat feed. Our feed store carries the following: chicken scratch, cracked corn, sweet feed, alfalfa cubes. Nothing else really, and they don't do special orders. I tried for a while to come up with a custom grain blend for my herd, but found that the individual grains I wanted to mix were not even available. What little we do have available is ridiculously expensive as well, because grain has to be shipped here from out of state, Arizona being a desert. I just have to make do with what is available, the only other option would be to pay about $50 a bag for an organic dairy goat feed that would have to be shipped to me from another state. I just can't afford that. I started the buckling and my chronically thin older doe on some calf-manna on top of their regular feed. I also dosed the buckling with di-methox. The other buckling and the cream colored doeling I shared photos of are no longer around, the buckling was killed by a mean doe that went to freezer camp afterwards, and the doeling died of tetanus from a bad puncture wound. It's been a rough year for us with losing kids to a lot of random things. After deworming and the di-methox, the buckling is starting to look and act a bit better, but he has a long ways to go before he will be fully healthy, I expect.

As for culling hard to breed towards resistance...I'd love to be able to work towards that, but with a very small herd (currently only four does) and a small budget, that's not practical for me at the moment. Nor would be getting rid of any animals that had a problem and getting new replacements, there are only two breeders of purebred LaManchas within a hundred miles or so of where I live, and I am one of them, my good friend the other. So, there's just not much available, and I have no desire to change breeds. The vast majority of the goats available within reasonable distance of me are probably highly resistant to disease because they receive little to no care or medical attention...but they are also poorly built crossbred meat type or Nubian type animals not at all suitable for dairy or, in my opinion, anything other than a tasty stir-fry. So I've got to work with what I have until I have more land and more money. I'd love to see dairy goats that are less delicate than what we've got now, it seems to me that disease resistance has been lost to a large extent with inbreeding and selection for an animal that can perform in the show ring. I do show my goats, but personally prefer to breed for good milk production and personality before worrying about flawless conformation and a ridiculous huge meaty udder that the poor goat can hardly walk around with. I absolutely would quit breeding an animal if it was consistently producing unhealthy, poor quality offspring or was chronically unhealthy itself, I don't want to pass anything on like that.

I can see that coccidia is probably essentially a man-made problem in my circumstances. Because I do not own the land I am living on, I cannot fence off the whole 7 acres and let the goats roam around at will browsing. The plant life here is very slow growing, so my landlords do not want any of it disturbed...meaning the goats live in smallish pens, and even with frequent cleaning, obviously there is always going to be manure on the ground, and parasites, coccidia included, in that manure, and baby goats will eat it, and get sick. So I think the issue is more one of management conditions than one of having poor stock to begin with, basically it is my fault they are not doing well, not the goats', I think in a more "natural" setting out on large pastures, they would not have so many problems, as the kids would come into less contact with the parasites, since it would be spread more thinly.

Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.

 

[AlaskanShepherdess]

I haven't even read the original post, so what I'm saying is just based on the title. The lady that I bought one of my does and a doeling from had almost all of her kids die this year, and several other farms had the same problem. The first thing that I had noticed was that my doeling, and the buckling that I bought, and then sold back to her, were growing SO slow! It later turns out that there is a bacteria that it attacking the area and several farms have lost almost all of their kids due to it. I'll see if I can find what kind it is.... It caused Pnuemonia and Scours in the kids, but treating the Pnuemonia and Scours wasn't enough I guess, since you had to treat the bacteria causing those.

 

[Roll farms]

Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.

I've had kids get the poos from DiMeth when I used it as a treatment only....since I've started using it as a preventative (every 21 days during the hot / wet months) it rarely causes a problem.

And yes, they will need more mineral if their intestinal lining is damaged...they have to take in more (of everything) to absorb ANYTHING.

I haven't even read the original post, so what I'm saying is just based on the title. The lady that I bought one of my does and a doeling from had almost all of her kids die this year, and several other farms had the same problem. The first thing that I had noticed was that my doeling, and the buckling that I bought, and then sold back to her, were growing SO slow! It later turns out that there is a bacteria that it attacking the area and several farms have lost almost all of their kids due to it. I'll see if I can find what kind it is.... It caused Pnuemonia and Scours in the kids, but treating the Pnuemonia and Scours wasn't enough I guess, since you had to treat the bacteria causing those.

Chances are, the problem wasn't a bacteria, it was coccidia. Lowered / compromised immune systems from coccidia often allow opportunistic bacteria to take over...treating the 'symptoms' (scours/pnuemonia) won't cure the real 'problem' (coccidia).
Often times animals seem to improve short-term, because the side issues are cleared up...but until they're old enough to fight it off or the coccidia is treated, they will still suffer growth setbacks and are at risk of death.

 

[Emmetts Dairy]

Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.

Yes it can give them diarrhea. I agree. Along with extra minerals you always want to give the Vitamin B shots. Those B vitamins are crucial to the metabolism of of the nutrients they are getting. I would definately give them B shots. Important!!!! It will also increase the appetite too...so when they get some balanced feed..it will be absorbed properly. So they can start getting some condition and muscle tone! Really important so they can sustain themselves while compromised.

Make sure no one is dehydrated and give fresh water daily for sure. And I cant stress enough..get some B complex for them!!! Thats cheap enough for a large bottle. I think its like $6.00 bucks. And as for good grain...I would drive the 100 miles and find someone to get it. You dont need $50 a bag organic feed to keep your animals in optimum health. Thats just not true. Just get a well balanced feed and offer loose minerals. You can get a nice well balanced feed for $10 a 50lb bag. With a cocciastat in it if you want.!!

Good luck...Im sorry you have to go thru this...but its not the end of the world and you can get them healthy soon enough! They may never be the optimum goat for show or sales...but you can get them healthy and in good condition for sure!!!

 

[AlaskanShepherdess]

Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.

I've had kids get the poos from DiMeth when I used it as a treatment only....since I've started using it as a preventative (every 21 days during the hot / wet months) it rarely causes a problem.

And yes, they will need more mineral if their intestinal lining is damaged...they have to take in more (of everything) to absorb ANYTHING.

I haven't even read the original post, so what I'm saying is just based on the title. The lady that I bought one of my does and a doeling from had almost all of her kids die this year, and several other farms had the same problem. The first thing that I had noticed was that my doeling, and the buckling that I bought, and then sold back to her, were growing SO slow! It later turns out that there is a bacteria that it attacking the area and several farms have lost almost all of their kids due to it. I'll see if I can find what kind it is.... It caused Pnuemonia and Scours in the kids, but treating the Pnuemonia and Scours wasn't enough I guess, since you had to treat the bacteria causing those.

Chances are, the problem wasn't a bacteria, it was coccidia. Lowered / compromised immune systems from coccidia often allow opportunistic bacteria to take over...treating the 'symptoms' (scours/pnuemonia) won't cure the real 'problem' (coccidia).
Often times animals seem to improve short-term, because the side issues are cleared up...but until they're old enough to fight it off or the coccidia is treated, they will still suffer growth setbacks and are at risk of death.

They had a vet take a look and the vet is who said it was this bacteria. I really need to try and find where I saw it mentioned...

 

[AlaskanShepherdess]

OK here is what it actually was. I'm kind of confused about the scours bit now though as I know my doeling had scours. Acute Mycoplasmal Pneumonia

 

[Ariel301]

Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.

Yes it can give them diarrhea. I agree. Along with extra minerals you always want to give the Vitamin B shots. Those B vitamins are crucial to the metabolism of of the nutrients they are getting. I would definately give them B shots. Important!!!! It will also increase the appetite too...so when they get some balanced feed..it will be absorbed properly. So they can start getting some condition and muscle tone! Really important so they can sustain themselves while compromised.

Make sure no one is dehydrated and give fresh water daily for sure. And I cant stress enough..get some B complex for them!!! Thats cheap enough for a large bottle. I think its like $6.00 bucks. And as for good grain...I would drive the 100 miles and find someone to get it. You dont need $50 a bag organic feed to keep your animals in optimum health. Thats just not true. Just get a well balanced feed and offer loose minerals. You can get a nice well balanced feed for $10 a 50lb bag. With a cocciastat in it if you want.!!

Good luck...Im sorry you have to go thru this...but its not the end of the world and you can get them healthy soon enough! They may never be the optimum goat for show or sales...but you can get them healthy and in good condition for sure!!!

Yep, I am big on the B-complex too. You won't catch me without it on hand. Little buckling is looking better and better every day. He's still thin but he's much more active and hungry now, gobbling grain, minerals, and hay. He's probably never going to grow to the size he was meant to be (both his parents are HUGE) but it won't mess with his genetics, so he'll still be able to do his job. I am so happy he's getting better, this kid is the biggest sweetheart of a buck I have ever met, and his dam's udder is just to die for. This year's kids are due starting in 3 1/2 weeks, so I am hoping for a better, fresh start with some new babies after all the hard luck I've had the last couple of years.