Dog-Dog Aggression

[babsbag]

Didn't you mention cats too? Or did I dream that? Keeping cats out of her fenced yard may prove to be a big problem if they are outdoor cats.

 

[Southern by choice]

When are you moving?
I am sure I missed a bit... why can't the fencing connect to the house?

Yes, circumstances in life do change.

I would focus on working with pups behavior about darting in. The muzzle for some animals actually creates more aggression, because it is creating a form of anxiety.
Not all dogs of course.
It is customary to sometimes work with Schutzhund dogs, that were poorly trained, with muzzles and they never have a problem.
Not all breeds are the same.

 

[LMK17]

Didn't you mention cats too? Or did I dream that? Keeping cats out of her fenced yard may prove to be a big problem if they are outdoor cats.

Yes, I did mention cats. My kiddos each adopted a kitten last year. I have no doubt Sam would kill them if given the chance. They're full grown now, and nothing that I've tried has gotten Sam to the point of accepting them. Her prey drive is just too high. As with other dogs, she sometimes seems OK with them, but other times she goes nuts around them. The current cats are indoor cats, and when Sam is inside, they go into their kitty condo/cage. At night, Sam and the cats get run of different parts of the house.

When are you moving?
I am sure I missed a bit... why can't the fencing connect to the house?

Yes, circumstances in life do change.

I would focus on working with pups behavior about darting in. The muzzle for some animals actually creates more aggression, because it is creating a form of anxiety.
Not all dogs of course.
It is customary to sometimes work with Schutzhund dogs, that were poorly trained, with muzzles and they never have a problem.
Not all breeds are the same.

Sorry, I'll bet I forgot a few pertinent details. We currently live in the suburbs. 1/10 acre lot, HOA, all that. Our many years-long goal has been to move to the county and run a little hobby farm, but DH's job situation wasn't stable enough that we felt comfortable moving and trying to put down roots, so we've been chilling in our little "starter home" for nearly a decade. But now the opportunity has come for us to move. We're buying a 20 acre farm + house, and the owners, who are downsizing, are leaving some of the livestock for us. We're supposed to close in mid-June, but we're running into some issues that may delay closing. So we'll be moving... probably some time in June. Maybe July? In the meanwhile, I thought it was reasonable to start growing up some farm dogs. Since young puppies aren't all that useful on a farm, especially without an older dog mentor, I wanted to get a month or so head start with training them and getting them grown a bit.

As far as a yard for Sam connecting to the house, the layout at the new place is a little weird for that. The current owners' farm dogs have beds set up in the attached garage, and they put a dog door in the garage door and also in the door on a shed near the house. I figure the puppies/farm dogs can have beds and food in one of these two places, too. However, both of the dog-door accessible areas are right off the back of the house, so I'm not sure how to construct a yard that allows the farm dogs access to shelter and also allows Sam to go straight from the house to her private yard.

It's hard to tell exactly what Sam thinks of the muzzle. It's a basket-type that allows her to eat, drink, pant, and bark while wearing it-- the most dog-friendly design I could find. She does run, bark, eat/drink, and all that while wearing the muzzle, so she's not super stressed. Still, she won't lie down comfortably. I think the muzzle rides up a bit over her eyes, so she lies in awkward looking positions while wearing it.

I agree I should work with the puppies on not running into the house. For the time being, they are crated in the utility room overnight, so they do come inside a bit. But at least I could start with training them to sit at the door and not come in until invited. Once on the farm, they'll hardly ever be in the house, so that should be easier.

 

[babsbag]

My Border Collies are ok with my cats that they know but I don't trust them around kittens at all. They have killed a cat that came into their yard, granted it wasn't mine but it still upset me. I only have one outdoor kitty and I honestly don't know what the dogs would do if she was in their yard, they are ok with her in the house but their "justice" can be quick and decisive. I saw what they did to a squirrel and it wasn't pretty. I don't know how you juggle all of this, kudos to you; I don't think I could do it.

 

[lcertuche]

That's a lot of juggling to manage.

 

[Simpleterrier]

Just a thought isn't there something with a chows brain swelling to big

 

[TAH]

I have a short attention span and have to really focus to read thru long stuff so sorry if I missed this already... I would also suffer from a terrible headache later.

How were they introduced to each other?

We had friends living with us and they bought a unfixed yellow lab and our dog could not handle him... They had a few pretty nasty fights but it was my fault on how I introduced them... I started with training them together on opposite side of the fence then they would work together but I kept there attention on me... Before to long they were playing fetch together.

 

[Southern by choice]

I am posting this so that others that may be browsing might be helped.
In no way is this accusatory so please don't take it that way.

The "farm dogs" should not have been retained until on the farm.
Farm dogs need to be raised daily with the events of farm life from the start.
Being in a small yard in a non farm environment can, not saying this is permanent, but can set them up for failure.
At this time they are just two more pets not being raised in the environment that you wish them to eventually be in. Because they are not true working dogs they are learning to just be pets.

I strongly encourage others to wait til you are on your farm before adding in what you want to be as future farm dogs.

 

[LMK17]

...I don't know how you juggle all of this, kudos to you; I don't think I could do it.

That's a lot of juggling to manage.

Yes, it's tough! I'm not even sure it's a good idea; I'm getting pretty stressed over the whole thing, and we have had some close calls where one animal or the other wasn't in the "right" place at a given time, and they had some contact with one another.

Just a thought isn't there something with a chows brain swelling to big

I'm sorry. I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to. However, I really don't think Sam has a medical condition since her aggression is not new. This has been a life-long personality trait for her, but she's been quite healthy for many years.

How were they introduced to each other?

In the case of the puppies, the puppies and Sam were kept apart with a baby gate for about 2-3 weeks. They could sniff each other but not have physical contact otherwise. After that time, they were allowed short play periods (< 5 min at first) in the yard. We started with Sam + 1 puppy at a time. Once things seemed to be going well, they were all allowed in the yard together for short periods of time, then longer. They were never left alone; I was always close by supervising. Because Sam resource guards, I did not allow them to have any toys, treats, or food/water bowls when they were together. I slowly increased the time they were allowed to be together with supervision. The attack on Ruby occurred about 1 week after their first supervised contact. That day, they had played well for quite a long time before the attack, maybe about 1 hour or so. Since then, they have had very limited contact with one another, and Sam is muzzled when they might come into contact with one another.

I am posting this so that others that may be browsing might be helped.
In no way is this accusatory so please don't take it that way.

The "farm dogs" should not have been retained until on the farm.
Farm dogs need to be raised daily with the events of farm life from the start.
Being in a small yard in a non farm environment can, not saying this is permanent, but can set them up for failure.
At this time they are just two more pets not being raised in the environment that you wish them to eventually be in. Because they are not true working dogs they are learning to just be pets.

I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks. And I am honestly not trying to be argumentative, but I do have some comments and questions for you.

Our first day on the farm is planned for June 16. This could change, but closing is still scheduled for that day. On the 16th, the puppies will be about 14 weeks old. Based on everything I've seen, 14 weeks is beyond the first critical socialization period, which ends around 12 weeks, but they should still be quite amenable to new experiences. So my plan was expose the puppies to many stimuli that they'll encounter whether on the farm or other places-- kids running and playing; startling noises; cats; various kinds of weather; humans outside the family; baths/getting wet-- Things they can experience now and then generalize to farm life later. Also, I've taken them to visit the farm twice. They've gotten to see the chickens and goats, the current owners' dogs, tall grass, "farm" smells... And I'm working on cues such as "take it/leave it" that should be useful in getting them not to harass the small livestock... I think the main difference between farm life and their current life is that they will sleep outside of the house. Even then, though, I don't think it's going to be a huge change for them. Currently, they sleep in a crate in the downstairs utility room. They don't get run of the house. They are outside as much as possible during the day, then they come inside and go straight to the utility room for bed or when we're away from the house. They eat and nap outside. Once on the farm, I plan to put their crate in the garage. There's a dog door on the garage, and once they learn to use it, I really don't think their experience is going to be all that different from how it is now, except that they'll control their own access to their crate/bed/shelter. I image that at some point, they'll just choose to sleep outside, especially in the heat of the summer, but I think they'll be somewhat alert to things going on overnight even if they are in the garage. Even if we were on the farm now, I still think I'd lock them in the crate them overnight since they're quite small.

It seems to me that, although my plan might not be perfect, it's a solid one. Their lives aren't all that different from how they'll be on the farm. I will need to carefully introduce them to the livestock and make sure they know not to mess with the farm animals, but I think they should be young enough that they'll take to that training easily. Or am I missing something? Looked at another way, is there a huge difference between a "farm dog" and a "pet dog who lives on a farm?" I realize that these puppies are not LGD, and I don't expect them to be. My main goals for them are that they assist with keeping intruders (could be predators or strange people) off the property and they don't harass the livestock. Honestly, most pet dogs I've had could likely have done those jobs. Most dogs, in my experience, are territorial enough that they bark at strangers in the yard, run off raccoons, and that sort of thing. Sam, for example, is an excellent watch dog. I'm not looking for much more than that out of these pups.

If I'm understanding your point of view, you're suggesting that farm dogs need to be on the farm their entire lives. Is that correct? If so, would you say that any dog from "pet" stock (i.e. parents are not farm dogs) would be unsuitable-- or at least severely handicapped-- as a farm dog? If so, could you please explain why? I absolutely can understand why that would be the case for a LGD, but those are in a different league that all-around farm dogs, right? Again, I'm not arguing; just trying to clarify and understand.