Adult LGD Problem

[Sophia]

Hello! So I was lucky enough to acquire two experienced adult livestock guardian dogs, but one of them is giving me some trouble. First off, let me give some more information.


My family lives on a 11 acre “farm”. It’s not really a farm, the majority of the land is wooded, but we have a medium size herd of dairy goats that we show. We’ve never had any serious predator problems, but we are surrounded by lots of wooded property. We have often heard coyotes howling close by. The neighbor’s dog has made it into the barn once, but he hasn’t set paw on the property since we chased him away. In the past there have been roaming packs of dogs. We currently have two dogs, a lab and a beagle, but we knew we couldn’t rely on them to guard the animals. This past summer we built a new pasture that ran right alongside the woods. All of these factors, coyotes, neighbor’s dogs, roaming dogs, new pasture closer to woods, etc., made me more and more nervous. I didn’t want to let predators become a problem.


I started researching livestock guardian dogs. I knew raising a puppy could be a years long process, and I’ll admit I was apprehensive. So when I got on Facebook to see a friend had posted about two experienced adult LGDs free to good home I was beyond excited. I jumped on it as fast as I could. The lady rehoming them was very honest about the dogs. The dogs are very bonded and needed to go to the same home. They are both unaltered. They are male and female, the male a purebred Great Pyrenees and the female a purebred Karakachan. The male, Jack, is 2 and the female, Mae, is 4. They have both lived with goats all their lives. Mae once caught a coyote, threw it into the air, and it was dead by the time it hit the ground. The only reason they had to be rehomed was that their goat herd had been sold because of family issues. I decided to take the dogs.


We have a smallish, very sturdy pasture we put them in once they arrived. They stayed in the pasture for a couple days while they warmed up to us. Jack was super friendly, almost puppy like, but Mae was slower to get used to us. Once they were both more adjusted, we took them on a leashed walk around the perimeter of one of the pastures. Some of our goats were in the pen. This was their first dog-in-the-pen encounter. They took it better than we thought they would. They were scared, but also very curious.


The next day we let the dogs off their leashes. They really seemed to enjoy themselves, doing multiple laps around the perimeter and peeing on their new territory. The goats were nervous, but handled it well.


We knew we wanted to eventually separate the dogs, but when they were taken away from each other, they went ape. So we decided to let them be together for awhile until they got used to their new home. We kept them both in a pasture with goats during the day. They were supervised in the pen for a few hours a day and then put in their own pasture at night. After spending nearly a full day in the pasture with them the day before, we decided to let them be by “themselves”. We watched them from afar and through windows. They were both pretty chill, just lounged around. The goats were doing better with them, but would run if the dogs approached them. Mae was very good about giving the goats their personal space, and she tried to never startle them. We noticed that Jack, on the other hand, wouldn’t care if he disturbed the goats. For instance, if we came up to the fence and goats were standing in front of us he would barrel right up to us, freaking the goats out in the process.


We continued watching them and a couple days passed. They were still only let out during the day. The last time they were in the pasture with the goats, we looked out to see Jack chasing the goats and then jumping on them! He didn’t pin them to the ground, but just jumped on top of them. I was very concerned and yelled at him immediately. He stopped, and the goat he was harassing ran away. I was walking to the gate to get in with him when he ran up to the goats, who were all huddled together, obviously scared. One of the goats ran when he barreled toward her and got separated from the other goats. Jack chased right on after her. The doe was petrified. At this point I was fuming, and I yelled at him very loudly. He stopped and ran to me. I got a leash and firmly removed him from the pen. This whole time Mae didn’t know what to do with herself. She wasn’t participating in Jack’s antics, but she was simpering after my outburst. I went ahead and took her out of the pen as well.


At this point I’m not sure what to do. He has been well behaved with the goats so far, even when he thought I couldn’t see him. Is he trying to assert his dominance? Do I need to go back to physically-present supervised pasture time? I’ve heard of some people using shock collars to discourage this type of behavior. Are they a good option? He is obedient, mostly listens to my commands, comes when called, etc. Thank you!

 

[frustratedearthmother]

We do have an LGD "guru" here. I'll tag her and hope she can give you some tips.
@Southern by choice

 

[Sophia]

We do have an LGD "guru" here. I'll tag her and hope she can give you some tips.
@Southern by choice

Thank you very much!

 

[BrendaMNgri]

I am no "guru" and would never call myself one.

But this I will say to you: get the female spayed soon. Like, really soon.

But back to your issue. Your dogs have barely been there. Do not expect miracles overnight. Do not try separating them as it sounds like they are used to working together, and LGDs are not supposed to work solo. They are supposed to be used in teams, trios, etc. and you have more than enough land to warrant running a pair that stays together. Hence, my lecture on spaying the female. Please do not add to the already glutted market of LGDs. Get her spayed and run them as a pair.

And get out there and supervise.

You should count on weeks if not months of monitoring, corrections, observing and learning about your dogs much more in depth than just a few hours of watching. And lean on the person you bought them from - and get input from them. Did the male do this before? Etc. etc. etc.

While you are at it buy Turid Rugaas' book on calming signals (available at Dogwise.com or Amazon), and bone up on honing your dog communication skills so your dogs will better understand you - and YOU - them.

No easy outs, no quick fixes. It takes commitment and a heck of a lot of work. Many weeks, many days, many hours. Welcome to the world of responsible LGD ownership!

 

[Sophia]

I am no "guru" and would never call myself one.

But this I will say to you: get the female spayed soon. Like, really soon.

But back to your issue. Your dogs have barely been there. Do not expect miracles overnight. Do not try separating them as it sounds like they are used to working together, and LGDs are not supposed to work solo. They are supposed to be used in teams, trios, etc. and you have more than enough land to warrant running a pair that stays together. Hence, my lecture on spaying the female. Please do not add to the already glutted market of LGDs. Get her spayed and run them as a pair.

And get out there and supervise.

You should count on weeks if not months of monitoring, corrections, observing and learning about your dogs much more in depth than just a few hours of watching. And lean on the person you bought them from - and get input from them. Did the male do this before? Etc. etc. etc.

While you are at it buy Turid Rugaas' book on calming signals (available at Dogwise.com or Amazon), and bone up on honing your dog communication skills so your dogs will better understand you - and YOU - them.

No easy outs, no quick fixes. It takes commitment and a heck of a lot of work. Many weeks, many days, many hours. Welcome to the world of responsible LGD ownership!

I hear you on the spaying thing, I really don’t want a whole herd of LGDs!

I truly never expected the dogs to just magically bond to my goats and be instantly problem free. That would be extremely unfair to them. I expected bumps in the road.

The dogs have been with us for well over a month now. I’m not saying that this is enough time for them to be adjusted, I know it can take quite a few months or even longer. We had only just started not physically being in the pasture with them a couple days ago. They were still watched nearly every second of the time they were in there, but I am definitely going back to being physically in the pasture when they are.

The dogs were actually separated at their previous home, but had worked as a pair in the past. We only have around two acres of pasture fenced in, with two larger pastures under an acre each. They had nearly the same sized pasture at their old home. The plan was to put them each into different pastures. They would still be able see each other in nearly every part of the pastures. All that being said, I have read they work the best in pairs and am not totally opposed to keeping them in the same pen.

The previous owner was very open about any issues she had had with them. She told us the male would test the fence, but that was his only vice.

I’ll check out the book you recommended!

Thank you, I am very excited to be LGD owner!

 

[babsbag]

I would not suggest using the e-Collar. I did with my older dog trying to break them of chasing chickens and he just learned not to chase the chickens when the collar was on. He grew up, and it stopped. I used one on vibrate only with a younger dog and that worked ok. I just wanted to break her fixation on a goat and have her look and listen to me. But if your dog already responds to NO, then I don't think you need a vibrate collar either. It's good that you have time to spend with them in the field and I am sure that this will all work out in time.

 

[Sophia]

I would not suggest using the e-Collar. I did with my older dog trying to break them of chasing chickens and he just learned not to chase the chickens when the collar was on. He grew up, and it stopped. I used one on vibrate only with a younger dog and that worked ok. I just wanted to break her fixation on a goat and have her look and listen to me. But if your dog already responds to NO, then I don't think you need a vibrate collar either. It's good that you have time to spend with them in the field and I am sure that this will all work out in time.

Thank you for your sharing your experience with using a collar! He is pretty good at stopping when told to, so using one would most likely be a last resort. I spent some more time with Jack today and I do think this habit can be broke without having to use one. It really is a good thing I have time to be with them because I think I’ll need to be physically in the pasture with him more, to be able to correct him verbally. I think you’re right about it all working out in time. He really is a good dog.

 

[Southern by choice]

LOL no guru but I do train
Thanks FEM for the nice comment though!

we looked out to see Jack chasing the goats and then jumping on them!

The jumping on can mean many things and a dog should never do this but there may be a simple explaination

He didn’t pin them to the ground, but just jumped on top of them.

This tells me this is not an act of aggression... generally- given his age of 2 years the most likely scenario is does are cycling and he hasn't learned to not try to "get on them" and or you may have a bitch in heat sending off scent and he could be confused...
This happens so often and when it does it really freaks people out thinking the dog is trying to harm or attack the goats when that isn't the case. This is a PITbutt if dogs do this. It is not good and should be corrected. If the case is this than neutering your male may be an option.
Generally dogs will learn quickly with little intervention that this is not ok.
As a matter of fact this also happens with bucks (in rut) trying to mount LGD females and males too...

I was very concerned and yelled at him immediately.

Understand your reaction however sometimes- especially if this is new and there really clearly isn't an attack or aggression- those few extra seconds can tell you why and what he is doing...

he ran up to the goats, who were all huddled together, obviously scared.

Better description is needed.
Running as to chase, running as to move the goats, running to play, or just running up to and stopping?

One of the goats ran when he barreled toward her and got separated from the other goats. Jack chased right on after her.

Again you intervened before seeing the matter through- understandably but more than likely as she bolted an LGD will do exactly what he did and the LGD will stop the goat from running and move that goat back to the herd

I was fuming, and I yelled at him very loudly. He stopped and ran to me. I got a leash and firmly removed him from the pen.

This is understandable however you will need to work with your dog and see him as a partner... keeping calm and bringing correction in a more effective way is what teaches the dog appropriate and inappropriate behavior. Sometimes scolding is appropriate but learning why your dog is doing what he's doing is critical. He should not have been removed from the pen but better for you to stay and see his interaction from that point.

Once they were both more adjusted, we took them on a leashed walk around the perimeter of one of the pastures. Some of our goats were in the pen. This was their first dog-in-the-pen encounter. They took it better than we thought they would. They were scared, but also very curious.
The next day we let the dogs off their leashes. They really seemed to enjoy themselves, doing multiple laps around the perimeter and peeing on their new territory. The goats were nervous, but handled it well.

Goats that have never had a dog around them (LGD) and are going to be nervous and flighty should have been introduced on lead in a small area to the dogs. The dogs being on lead as well. The dogs generally want to sniff every butt and every head- they do this to know who their new charges are. It settles the dog even though it may make the goats uncomfortable it is a necessary process. When a dog does not get to sniff and know his herd the dog will attempt (usually) to do this on his own one way or another. The goats generally have a bit of a fit but become more relaxed when this is done and over. There are two parts to introducing a dog- the dog and the second part the goat (or sheep) this is more important for an adult dog than even a pup- given this dog is two this would have been a really good step.

I give you this brief story as an example
Seasoned and young dogs are treated the same when we bring in a new animal it is brought in and the dogs are all allowed to sniff smell and walk around the goat before the goat is released.
Recently we brought in a 5 month old Standard Buck that had never been around any LGD's he was terrified, started rearing up but also would try to bolt- we had him on lead though so he couldn't go far- when he tried to bolt the posturing of the dogs said - they would stop him. The dogs sniffed did their thing and all was done. The goat kept his distance and would run anytime the dogs would even meander by... the dogs watch but if the goat were to take off in a full blown run yes, they would run and they would stop the goat- generally by cutting the goat off - having a team they are good at this- they know the goat is a danger to himself and that goat going nuts puts the whole herd at risk in the eyes of the dogs.

As far as the bulldozing through- that is a whole other deal... some dogs do do this, some dogs tip toe around, some dogs still don't understand their role... the list is long and truthfully without seeing the dog in action and assessing the situation it is very hard to advise.

Often the situation is not what the new LGD owner is thinking it is but something all together different.

What time of day was this?

 

[Sophia]

This tells me this is not an act of aggression... generally- given his age of 2 years the most likely scenario is does are cycling and he hasn't learned to not try to "get on them" and or you may have a bitch in heat sending off scent and he could be confused...

I had been thinking maybe this was the case. I have several does in the pastures, and it’s pretty likely one of them was in heat.

Understand your reaction however sometimes- especially if this is new and there really clearly isn't an attack or aggression- those few extra seconds can tell you why and what he was doing...

I really don’t he was trying to hurt the goats. When I catch him doing it again, I’ll wait to see what he thinks he’s doing before intervening.

Better description is needed.
Running as to chase, running as to move the goats, running to play, or just running up to and stopping?

It was kinda a slow run, and right before he reached the goats, the doe broke away from the others. The doe ran towards me, and Jack just followed her to me. Again, next time definitely waiting to see what he is really doing.

Goats that have never had a dog around them (LGD) and are going to be nervous and flighty should have been introduced on lead in a small area to the dogs. The dogs being on lead as well. The dogs generally want to sniff every butt and every head- they do this to know who their new charges are. It settles the dog even though it may make the goats uncomfortable it is a necessary process. When a dog does not get to sniff and know his herd the dog will attempt (usually) to do this on his own one way or another. The goats generally have a bit of a fit but become more relaxed when this is done and over. There are two parts to introducing a dog- the dog and the second part the goat (or sheep) this is more important for an adult dog than even a pup- given this dog is two this would have been a really good step.

This makes total sense, and I really wish I had know to do this.

As far as the bulldozing through- that is a whole other deal... some dogs do do this, some dogs tip toe around, some dogs still don't understand their role... the list is long and truthfully without seeing the dog in action and assessing the situation it is very hard to advise.

I’m pretty sure it is just how he is. I don’t think means to disturb the goats, they just aren’t used to him running up like that.

What time of day was this?

Early afternoon.

Thank you for all of your advice!