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Fee for renting a bull

Discussion in 'Breeds & Breeding - Cattle' started by cjc, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. Jul 5, 2018
    greybeard

    greybeard Herd Master Golden Herd Member

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    Absolutely!

    My father always told me "Borrowing a bull is borrowing trouble" and trich was the reason he said it.


    I don't rent out bulls but if I did, I would have to have a pretty ironclad written lease agreement releasing me from any financial liability should trich become an issue in a client's cow herd.

    It is a serious issue many states.

    A 2009 article:
    https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/090401o.aspx
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  2. Jul 5, 2018
    Ridgetop

    Ridgetop True BYH Addict

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    So as soon as the bull is done at the place he is at now, have the vet out to draw blood (?) and send it in to the lab, right?

    Test for Vibrio, Trich, IBC, BVD, plus anything extra prevalent in the BC Canada area and then also do a CE test before sending on to some other herd or your own - have I got that straight? I am not a cattle person so I only understand the brucellosis bit, but farmerjan and Greybeard are so I would do what they say. Then figure out if it is worth the cost to put the bull out to stud next year and go from there. You may have to raise your price to cover the testing.
     
  3. Jul 5, 2018
    greybeard

    greybeard Herd Master Golden Herd Member

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    Trich is not normally checked with a blood test. It is done by first cleaning of the inside of the sheath and collecting smegma with a pipette.

     
  4. Jul 7, 2018
    Ridgetop

    Ridgetop True BYH Addict

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    Protect your herd and yourself financially by testing and having a written agreement with the other herds who use him. Do you have a written agreement? What if the bull breaks his leg in their field? Will they pay for him? For the vet costs?
    Wow! This is getting intense. Hopefully you already have a written service agreement.

    "No good deed goes unpunished" as they say.

    We loaned out a beautiful young buck with great bloodlines we wanted to keep but were not using that year. We were asked to loaned him to a 4-H family who were having some money issues and couldn't afford buying a buck. He came back with CL and we got rid of him. They said they had a clean herd and another breeder who was very careful vouched for them but we found out later that they also had a CAE doe the were breeding and showing. We wanted to keep that buck and use him on our young stock the following year so we were out a good buck. The kids they got out of him were lovely too. Live and learn.
     
  5. Jul 7, 2018
    farmerjan

    farmerjan True BYH Addict

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    Not to be discouraging; but we had a bull we really liked and had him in OUR pasture with OUR cows. A neighbors bull that was a KNOWN troublemaker, busted through the fence and hit our bull while he was on a cow breeding her and broke his leg. We didn't get any compensation, and were out a good bull we really liked. Things can happen.
    If/when we lease a bull we have an agreement that if anything should happen to the bull, injury, sickness, whatever, the lessee (them) are responsible for this agreed on price xxxx number of dollars. It is written right into the agreement.
    We used a bull once from a farm my son was working for when we didn't have alot of cash to buy a bull. He "broke" his penis and couldn't breed any more cows. We paid the difference between what they got for him at the stockyard and what he would have brought if they had sold him as a breeding bull. We knew what they were asking because we had been thinking about trying to buy him. He did get most of the cows bred before this accident, but they were out a saleable bull, and we were out the difference in cash. It worked out, but ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. It might not happen with this bull, it was maybe 10 years before we had this expensive accident happen to the leased/borrowed bull. BUT it can happen.
     
  6. Jul 11, 2018
    cjc

    cjc Loving the herd life

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    Thanks everyone for your input! I have not tested him myself but when he was sold at the auction he had to be tested prior to sale. What exactly he was tested for I am not sure. Luckily we are in an area that is just a bunch of hobby farmers so we move cows around and share fields etc., so the people renting my bull are not big time farmers by any means. But it doesn't make us exempt from issues, but it has not happen yet. I will ask the vet when he comes out next time to check my girls.

    @farmerjan my son is now 13 months old! He was terrified of the cows until about 2 months ago. Thank god he changed his tone haha. We were worried there for a bit! But its not shocking to us that his third word was MOOOOOOO!
     
  7. Jul 11, 2018
    greybeard

    greybeard Herd Master Golden Herd Member

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    That is a fairly common agreement.
    Other times, I've heard of it, 'renter 'gets' to keep the bull, pay the owner full price and renter sell him at stockyard to recoup some of renter's financial outlay' (or just eat the bull).

    Some of the bigger breeders have some kind of insurance policy to cover their loss of a breeding bull, but still invoke the "you pay the difference" thing. Seems like double dipping on their part, but they are the ones that are paying the insurance premiums...
    (I do not know anything about that kind of insurance)
     
  8. Jul 11, 2018
    Ridgetop

    Ridgetop True BYH Addict

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    There are livestock policies, but they can be pricey. It would depend of the value of the bull whether it was worth it. The problem with "just hobby farmers" is that they don't always see any reason to test their animals since they are "just hobby farmers" and have only a few. If they are picking up animals from other places, they could bring in something unknowingly and pass it along through the bull.

    If you call the auction yard, they will have a list of what tests have to be done before a bull can be sold. A copy of tests and results should also be in the paperwork you were given at time of sale. I recently bought an out of state ram at an online sale and he had to be tested for ovine brucellosis and a couple other things before the ram could be released to the buyer.
     
  9. Jul 11, 2018
    greybeard

    greybeard Herd Master Golden Herd Member

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    Yep, but if they don't test, they are apt to have a lot fewer.


    (a) Test Requirements. All Texas origin bulls sold, leased, gifted, exchanged or otherwise changing possession for breeding purposes in the State of Texas shall meet the following testing or certification requirements prior to sale or change of ownership in the state:


    (1) Be certified as virgin, by the breeder or his representative, on and accompanied by a breeder's certificate of virgin status; or


    (2) If from a herd of unknown status (a herd that has not had a whole herd test), be tested negative on three consecutive culture tests conducted not less than seven days apart or one RT-PCR test conducted within 60 days of sale or movement, be held separate from all female cattle since the test sample was collected, and be accompanied by a Trichomoniasis test record showing the negative test results.


    (b) Identification of Bulls. All bulls certified as virgin bulls shall be identified by an official identification device or method on the breeder's certification of virgin status. All bulls tested for Trichomoniasis shall be officially identified at the time the initial test sample is collected. That official identification shall be recorded on the test documents prior to submittal.


    (c) Confirmatory Test. The owner of any bull which tests positive for Trichomoniasis may request in writing, within five days of the positive test, that the commission allow a confirmatory test be performed on the positive bull. If the confirmatory test is positive the bull will be classified as infected with Trichomoniasis. If the confirmatory test is negative the bull shall be retested in not less than seven days to determine its disease status. If the confirmatory test reveals that the bull is only infected with fecal trichomonads, the test may be considered negative.


    (d) Untested Bulls. Bulls presented for sale without a breeder's certification of virgin status or a Trichomoniasis test record showing negative test results may:


    (1) Be sold for movement only directly to slaughter; or


    (2) Be sold for movement to an approved feedlot and then moved to slaughter or transported back to a livestock market under permit, issued by commission personnel, to be sold in accordance with this chapter; or


    (3) Be sold and moved under a Hold Order to such place as specified by the commission for testing to change status from a slaughter bull. Such bulls shall be officially individually identified with a permanent form of identification prior to movement, move to the designated location on a movement permit, and be held in isolation from female cattle at the designated location where the bull shall undergo three consecutive culture tests at least seven days apart or one RT-PCR test. If the results of any test are positive, all bulls in the herd of origin of the positive bull shall be placed under hold order and tested as provided by subsection (e) of this section. The positive bull shall be classified as infected and be permitted for movement only directly to slaughter or to a livestock market for sale directly to slaughter; or


    (4) Be sold and moved to another physical location under permit issued by commission personnel, and then to a livestock market or location to be resold within seven days from the date of issuance. The bull cannot be commingled with female cattle during the seven days.


    (e) Herd of Origin or Unit Testing.


    (1) All bulls that are part of a herd of origin from which a bull is sold in accordance with subsection (d)(3) of this section and is found to be infected with Trichomoniasis shall be placed under hold order and officially tested for Trichomoniasis.


    (2) All bulls that are part of a unit of origin, as epidemiologically determined by the commission, from which a bull becomes separated and that bull is found to be positive for Trichomoniasis shall be placed under a hold order and officially tested for Trichomoniasis. All bulls that are part of the unit on which the separated positive bull was located, as epidemiologically determined by the commission, shall also be placed under hold order and officially tested for Trichomoniasis.


    (3) Officially tested, as used in this subsection, requires at a minimum three official culture tests conducted not less than seven days apart, or one official RT-PCR test. If the results of any test that are required by this subsection are positive, the herd shall be tested as provided by §38.3 of this chapter (relating to Infected Herds).



    (I'm telling my age, but Never buy a bovine with a 'B' branded on their jaw)
     
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  10. Jul 11, 2018
    Ridgetop

    Ridgetop True BYH Addict

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    This is excellent information. Thanks Greybeard! Ok so now cjc can find out what tests his bull has had. Although if he was purchased as a 2 year old, he may have been certified as "virgin". Either way, it should show up on the auction paperwork.

    Not sure what a "B" brand on the jaw stands for, but it doesn't sound good . . . .