Livestock guardian dog questions from a newbie

[zeb2014]

Hello all! I am VERY new to livestock that isn't chickens. I am getting 3 St. Croix ewe lambs next spring and am looking into getting an LGD for livestock protection.

My biggest question right now is, can I train a puppy on poultry (I know it is a little different than training them on livestock) and then transfer that training to the sheep next year?

I found what looks like an Anatolian shepherd at a local shelter and have been in contact with the sheep breeder I am getting the lambs from and she gets rescue Pyrenees and trains them.

I am also a certified dog trainer and the training seems straightforward, but I am trying to understand it so I don't completely screw this dog up.

I have read a couple of the threads on here but I can't find anything on this particular subject.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[CLSranch]

For them, the switch should be easy. Lambs to chickens might be a little harder but they are designed and breed for sheep and goats. Best O' luck.

 

[Baymule]

I would be cautious about a dog that “looks” like an Anatolian in a shelter. Chances are, it may not be. Anatolians are pretty intense dogs and can be a bit much for a LGD newbie. I started with Great Pyrenees, wonderful dogs. I’ve had 2 Great Pyrenees and currently have 3 Anatolians.

Since the lady you are getting the lambs from trains Great Pyrenees, I would recommend that you get one from her. You would have a much greater chance of having a good experience, plus having her as a mentor.

My first Great Pyrenees was a free chicken killer and I slowly transitioned her to the best chicken guard ever. We moved, got sheep and she “protected” me from them. She attacked. So it took time to train her to the sheep and once again, she made a fabulous sheep guardian. Mistreatment at her first home screwed her up. She was quirky, weird, a whole lot psycho, loved us fiercely, and killed snakes. Her name was Paris.

Touch my name. You’ll get a pop up. Touch my name again and you will get another screen. Touch Find, then all threads by Baymule. All of my dogs have their own threads. Maybe reading what I did right and what I did wrong will help you on your journey.

 

[Ridgetop]

Absolutely give the "looks like an Anatolian" rescue dog a pass. Even if it was supposedly "with livestock". Many livestock guardian breed individuals are not good guardians. Some will actually kill sheep and goats and have been given up because of that. Rescue dogs may have other temperament problems depending on their parents and knowledge of the breeders. Crossbreds are to be avoided since you can end up with a dog with high prey drive and desire to be with the livestock making for trouble.

First things first: DO YOU HAVE GOOD STRONG 6' FENCES ON YOUR PERIMETER? Any livestock guardian dog needs a good fence. If you don't have a good high fence you are not ready for a livestock guardian dog. Cattle fences won't do. The fence should come first. Your training experience is excellent preparation however, LGDs are not like any other breed of dog. In some cases they are not like dogs at all. Standard obedience training can teach them some commands, but if the LGD senses danger to charges, you will not be able to recall them before they deal with the threat on their own terms. Our dogs have refused to come in for their dinners when they thought a threat was present on the other side of 6 acres. Livestock guardian dogs are usually large as size is a weapon, they use to discourage predators. They have deep barks and are known to bark most of the night. We sleep easy with the barking knowing they are on the job. The only times our dogs have run silent with a predator on the other side of the fence is when they were going to kill it. Anatolians will bark warnings but if the predator enters the property anyway, they will not waste energy but will simply kill it. Several coyote carcasses in our property are proof.

As to breed:
We had several Pyrenees. Pyrs are notorious for running outside their boundaries. They can climb 6-7' fences, go through holes as small as 8" x 10", squeeze or dig under fences. If they can fit their heads through they can collapse their bodies like cats to follow. The massive coat is deceptive. Pyrs are lithe, fast dogs. They are exceptional guardians with the caveat that if they can see the property they will guard it. This includes your fields your neighbor's fields, and the open 500 acres across the street. If you have a lot of acreage they are one of the best since their guarding style is to keep the area clear within the perimeter THEY set. That perimeter does it necessarily mean your fences. An added benefit is that they are normally friendly to people, tolerant of other dogs when trained to accept them. You can add more guardian dogs later without much worry, and also use a herding dog. If you have school age children and they invite friends over, Pyrs would be a good choice since they are more tolerant of strangers than Anatolians. This is why our first LGD breed was Pyrenees 30 years ago. We loved them but as the neighborhood changed and there were more homes and fewer livestock people, their escape and wander behavior became too much. When our last Pyr died of cancer we changed breeds.

We currently have Anatolians. (Ignore any ads for "rare Kangals". Kangals are the same DNA as Anatolians, this is just a color - fawn with black mask.) This is a much more difficult breed with their ow guarding style and set of training problems. We did not choose them without intense study and some trepidation. They are not like other LGD breeds. These dogs guard in a different manner from Pyrs. Where Pyrs protect an area, Anatolians stick close to their flocks. They will not leave the perimeter fence unless a predator refuses to back down, at which time they may leave to kill it. Then they will return. Anatolians are usually intolerant of strangers, and won't acclimate to other dogs unless introduced as puppies. When these puppies become mature, they will often challenge the other Anatolians for pack leadership. Same sex siblings raised together will begin to oppose each other around 2 years of age. By 3 years old they will often have begun a life struggle for dominance and need to be kept in different fields. If you want multiple Anatolians, choose a male and female. Anatolian males are extremely dominant and can be aggressive. Even this may not help since Anatolian bitches are often as dominant as males. Spacing your dogs several years apart in age is another way to deal with Anatolian pack aggression. This can be curbed somewhat by lots of socialization and the correct training. Anatolians are devoted to their families and adore small children and babies. Our grandchildren can do anything with these giant dogs.

If you are considering an Anatolian I would refer you to Lucky Hit Anatolians web page. There are many articles on it about training and also articles written by people who have gotten Anatolians and had problems. Erick Conard has made Anatolians, their behavior, and livestock training his work for 40 years. His focus is working ability but also takes his dogs straight from the field to the show ring, finishing them in record time.

There are other LGD breeds with which I am not as familiar. All are worth looking into. Depending on where you live some breeds may be easier to find than others. I would do as much reading on the subject as possible. The old theory of tossing the dog in a field and having no contact with it to encourage to "bond" with the sheep has been disproven. We know now that these dogs respond to personal interaction and need training.

 

[zeb2014]

Thank you for the input!

I did already decide to pass on the rescue puppy. I have experience with rescue dog issues and without knowing the dog's history and genetics it is too big a risk.

I did join some LGD groups on FB and may have found a puppy in the state. It is a Pyrenees/Anatolian cross, I just would be concerned about the dog's instincts fighting themselves (because Pyrs protect everything, and Anatolians protect only the flock) and causing the dog to have other issues.

As far as perimeter fencing, no we do not have perimeter fencing, we are planning to use Premier 1 poultry net for the sheep (because we may put chickens in with them) and move it every week or so.

My concern after reading your reply @Ridgetop is the dogs being unable to guard properly with an electric fence, or trying to go through the fence to get to predators and getting caught in it.

I do have experience with large, aggressive breeds, my own dog is a 113 lb GSD/cane corso mix with severe dog reactivity (co-exists fine with the other dogs in the home), but now I am afraid I am getting a little over my head with an LGD, they are a completely different ball game and very serious working dogs in a different sense than anything I have worked with in the past.

 

[Baymule]

With a LGD, any breed, a good parameter fence is a must.

I commend you for educating yourself. These are amazing dogs, different from any dog you have ever had.

 

[Ridgetop]

Electric fencing is great for interior fencing for the sheep. But you do need a secure perimeter fence or the dogs's protection as well. You don't want your dog getting out and being accused of killing livestock or hurting anyone - same as with your Cane Corso.

My concern after reading your reply @Ridgetop is the dogs being unable to guard properly with an electric fence, or trying to go through the fence to get to predators and getting caught in it.

You can arrange "gates" for the LGDs to travel from field to field. If your Cane Corso mix is dog-aggressive, he may be all you need for coyotes and stray dogs which may be your worst predators.

What state are you in? and what are your main predators? If you can train your dog not to go after your sheep, and since you are a certified trainer, you should be able to do this, then you may not need a livestock guardian dog. If you can put the sheep up during the night in a secure pen or shed, and if your dog has access to the area around the electric-fenced-in area where the sheep are, then your current dog may be able all the protection you need.

 

[zeb2014]

My cane corso mix is fully trained and does not need a fence, nor does he chase livestock or hurt people (which frankly is not something a dog should do anyway and none of my dogs are allowed or able to do that). He is also NOT a guardian dog. He is my PERSONAL dog, used for bite sports, and demo dog for my business. Also, if I did let him kill predators it would likely increase his dog REACTIVITY (it's not aggression, he is afraid and was picked up by the pound as a stray so learned to defend himself from other dogs).

We live in a very rural area and rarely see stray dogs, although our negligent neighbor does have a Great Dane that is a runner and I would be concerned about that.

We live in West Michigan, we have coyotes, apparently bears (we have never seen bears, but we know they are present), and we have a bobcat that has been roaming around for the last few months. We have poultry currently (my dog is fine with chickens, does not chase them, does not want to) and haven't currently had issues with the bobcat or bears, we have had coyotes in our yard and near the chickens but have guinea fowl that I have seen run a coyote off before.

On that note about the guineas, would they be a good "guard" animal that would scare a predator enough to keep them away?

 

[CLSranch]

On that note about the guineas, would they be a good "guard" animal that would scare a predator enough to keep them away?

They sleep at night just like chickens. Depends on if you shelter the sheep in a barn at night. During the day they are some of the best guards. May even tell you if you have a snake.

 

[Ridgetop]

My grandmother said that the couple years when they had guinea hens, no one could come on the property without those birds raising a ruckus. They are great watchbirds, but they are birds so . . . .