Looking for new Sheep Mineral

[Cornish Heritage]

Roswell, NM is the closest dealer of Redmond's..which is about 4 hours from me..sad

Does Azure Standard deliver anywhere near you? I know they have a truck that heads into AZ & NM. For those that do not know, Azure Standard is a company out of Oregon that sells organic produce etc. It is HUGE! They have truck going all over the western part of the US & come as far east as St. Louis, MO. That is where we get our Redmond Conditioner from PLUS all our bulk foods for our own personal consumption. Their prices are excellent. If we were to try & buy Redmond here we would have to go several hours too.

Check out their website & call them to see if they come close to you - www.azurestandard.com

Liz

 

[TexasShepherdess]

thanks CH, will check into the fesability of this..

 

[Sweet Daisy]

Here on the farm we use Redmond's Livestock Conditioner. It is suitable for all animals so makes it multi-purpose & is not that expensive - around $10 - $11 per $50 bag. All the animals, even the young lambs, love it & it is all natural.

We ran out the other day & had to go buy some "mineral" from the local feed store. I asked them if there was any "junk" in it? No, they said! Yeah right! Not only was it $21 a bag & only suitable for the cows (they had nothing for sheep) BUT it was full of animal protein & nasty preservatives. Will not be buying that again - what a rip off.

Liz

The Redmond Conditiner sounded good so I checked out the ingredients and found that it has 30 ppm of Copper. Anything I can find says that best and safest for sheep is 3 ppm of copper, with 4 ppm being okay. The recommendation of the 3ppm is speaking about feed, so might that account for the difference since they Don't consume the same quantity of minerals as feed? I'm very interested in it as the lamb is turned out with horses and if I give it free choice it has to be okay for both the lamb and horses. It shows on the Redmond website that the conditioner is safe for sheep. The Redmond Natural Mineral Salt (bag or block) has only 3 ppm Copper. Any thoughts on this???

 

[Cornish Heritage]

Hmmm.... Nomad, you got any thoughts on this? On another thread Nomad made mention that feeding alfalfa increases the iron load needing more copper to digest it. We do feed some alfalfa here so now I am wondering if that is why our sheep eat so much of the Redmond Conditioner? I honestly have NO idea. All I know is that the sheep & cows eat the stuff like candy whereas the pigs do not eat quite as much but they are getting minerals in their feed so I am presuming that they do not need quite as much.

AND it doesn't matter if it rains on the salt either - the animals will eat it wet or dry which is a blessing - no waste.

Liz

 

[nomad]

Hmmm.... Nomad, you got any thoughts on this?
Liz

This question was rhetorical I am assuming.

The short answer to the copper question is: it depends.

All animals need copper in order to function properly. Different animals require different levels of copper for optimal health. That was the easy part. Remember that nothing operates in a vacuum - all biological elements are interconnected in some way. The level of copper that is sufficient (within the acceptable range) for a particular animal is very dependent upon its diet. An animal that is fed processed feeds will have a different requirement than an animal that is raised on pasture. Even on pasture, the requirements can be a little different depending on what type of pasture is involved. Some types of grasses will contain more copper than others and possibly each grass will have slightly different levels depending on which stage of growth it is in. So this is not an easy "one size fits all" type of answer. I will quote some research that addresses this issue. It appears that other elements such as molybdenum and sulphur have a great influence on the ability of the animal to deal with the copper load.

"The amount of copper required, however, is dependent on dietary and genetic factors, making it difficult to specify an actual requirement without describing the conditions for which it applies. The amount of molybdenum and sulfur in the diet are major factors influencing the requirement for copper. These minerals form complexes with copper, reducing its absorption or its biochemical availability in the body, and may increase the amount of copper required in the diet." http://www.merricks.com/tech_copper_req.html

"The uptake of copper from the herbage is a complex interaction between the copper, molybdenum, sulphate, possibly other mineral and the herbage plants themselves. The normal level of copper in a plant is 10-20 ppm dry weight. If the molybdenum level is greater than 1 ppm, copper is not absorbed at toxic levels. High sulphate levels in the soil reduce the availability of molybdenum by tying it up as molybdenum sulphate. In a recent case where the diagnosis was CCP, the copper level in the herbage was 8 ppm but the molybdenum was only 0.5 ppm. Young growing plants tend to be lower in molybdenum than the mature." http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/sheep/facts/health-copper.htm

When sheep take in too much copper, they risk CCP (chronic copper poisoning) especially when the animal encounters stress. Copper is stored in the liver and during stress, the cells can rupture releasing the copper into the bloodstream causing damage to red blood cells (particularly the hemoglobin).

"Under normal circumstances, copper is absorbed from the diet and transported in the bloodstream to the liver for storage. Excess copper from the diet is stored in the liver and is released into the blood as needed for regular body functions. The circulating copper level tends to remain constant regardless of the amount of excess copper accumulating in the liver. This makes it difficult to ascertain a sheep's copper status. The objective is to maintain a balance between the amount of copper required by the sheep, the amount provided in the diet and the amount accumulating in the liver.

When the breakpoint is reached and the liver releases stored copper, blood copper levels rise tenfold or more. This rush of copper into the sheep's bloodstream causes a widespread breakdown of red blood cells. The released hemoglobin, which normally carries oxygen throughout the body, is converted to methemoglobin. This form of hemoglobin is unable to carry oxygen to tissues. The kidneys attempt to filter the large volume of hemoglobin and red blood cell fragments and become clogged, suffering severe tubular damage. Related symptoms are anemia, jaundice (icterus) which can be seen as pale, yellow membranes. Urine is typically a dark brown-red coloration. Affected sheep are anorexic, lethargic and extremely thirsty. This deteriorating situation results in shock, prostration and frequently death. Death usually occurs with 1 to 2 days of clinical signs, but massive copper release may result in dead sheep without any clinical signs. Surviving sheep should be treated to inactivate the copper, usually with a drench of ammonium molybdate and sodium sulfate." http://www.merricks.com/tech_copper_req.html


So the answer to the amount of copper that can be given is dependant upon diet. "The dietary copper required is best expressed as a range, rather than a specific value. Even so, these values are conditional and adjustments may be required for individual situations. With adequate molybdenum, a dietary copper range of 12-36 mg/kg of ration dry matter, or parts per million, is specified for sheep (Underwood and Suttle, 2001)."

I know this does not make the answer to your question a simple one, but in order to know for sure what is considered safe or not, you have to look at the copper in any and all feeds and supplements that you are providing. That is another reason why I like managing for all natural forages. In my experiments (as well as those who have greater experience than me), it appears that biodiversity holds the key to balance. When a particular forage area (pasture) is well balanced with multiple plant species, the animal seems to derive almost all necessary elements in sufficient quantities so as not to reach a deficient state nor a toxic state. I say almost all because our animals love the sodium bicarbonate. They will not eat the Redmond's conditioner and rarely touch the Redmond's fine salt (though we continue to provide them free choice). They, at times, will go through quite large quantities of the sodium bicarbonate though.

As I have stated in other posts, the sodium bicarbonate appears to really boost the animal in many ways by stimulating the production of "metabolic carbon dioxide". "In a nutrition class, in the late 70s, I described the way metabolically produced carbon dioxide opens blood vessels in the brain, and mentioned that carbonated water, or "soda water," should improve circulation to the brain when the brain's production of carbon dioxide wasn't adequate. A week later, a student said she had gone home that night and (interpreting soda water as bicarbonate of soda in water) given her stroke-paralyzed mother a glass of water with a spoonful of baking soda in it. Her mother had been hemiplegic for 6 months following a stroke, but 15 minutes after drinking the bicarbonate, the paralysis lifted, and she remained normal. Later, a man who had stroke-like symptoms when he drank alcohol late at night, found that drinking a glass of carbonated water caused the symptoms to stop within a few minutes." (Dr. Ray Peat - Stress and Water)

I am a big believer in providing sodium bicarbonate as a minimum supplement. Any other supplements would be dependant upon your specific operation. In my estimation, the Redmond's Livestock Conditioner is acceptable for your sheep (the bag indicates 20 ppm of copper).

The reason why we have to continue the supplementing with our animals is due to our lifestyle. We rehabilitate run down farms (including pastures and renovation of buildings) so we move at several year intervals which means we are never truly reaching maximum potential in our forages. We are constantly in improvement mode, yet our results are very gratifying.

Enjoy.

 

[Cornish Heritage]

I agree (this is Richard not Liz), Redmond Conditioner is most likely safe for sheep unless they are going to gorge themselves on it and eat several kilos! The bicarb and intra-vascular co2 levels I am a little more skeptical over as CO2 levels in the blood are closely regulated by the body systems as the pH levels have a very fine range for life to exist (e.g. 7.35-7.45 in humans). Having said that increasing CO2 levels will cause increased blood flow in the brain. Sodium Bicarb is one of the main buffers in the blood stream (the body produces it's own) and I'm guessing that the supplement has more to do with the digestive process than the circulatory one.

However, I am also a firm believer that animals generally know what supplements they need and will choose the best one available. As nomad points out every circumstance is going to be different to some degree. If Sodium Bicarb works then that's definitely a good one to have available!

Richard

 

[nomad]

I agree (this is Richard not Liz), Redmond Conditioner is most likely safe for sheep unless they are going to gorge themselves on it and eat several kilos! The bicarb and intra-vascular co2 levels I am a little more skeptical over as CO2 levels in the blood are closely regulated by the body systems as the pH levels have a very fine range for life to exist (e.g. 7.35-7.45 in humans). Having said that increasing CO2 levels will cause increased blood flow in the brain. Sodium Bicarb is one of the main buffers in the blood stream (the body produces it's own) and I'm guessing that the supplement has more to do with the digestive process than the circulatory one.

However, I am also a firm believer that animals generally know what supplements they need and will choose the best one available. As nomad points out every circumstance is going to be different to some degree. If Sodium Bicarb works then that's definitely a good one to have available!

Richard

Richard,

Thank you for commenting on the bicarb - CO2 linkage. I appreciate a skeptic since I am one myself.

It is true about your statement concerning the pH levels operating within a narrow range, however, it appears that there is more to look at than just the pH factor in the overall balance of the organism.

"Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) immediately reacts when it mixes with stomach acid. NaHCO(3) + HCl ---> NaCl + H(2)0 + CO(2). That is: Sodium bicarbonate + stomach acid yields salt + water + carbon dioxide. " And since "Sodium (Na+) is the principal cation of the extracellular fluid and bicarbonate (HC03 ) is a normal constituent of body fluids" (Ray Peat - interview Natural Solutions Radio), it seems prudent to ensure that the body is properly supplied with these elements.

"Carbon dioxide (CO2) was found at the end of the 19th century by scientists Bohr and Verigo to be responsible for the bond between oxygen and haemoglobin. If the level of carbon dioxide in the blood is lower than normal, then this leads to difficulties in releasing oxygen from haemoglobin. Hence the Verigo-Bohr law."

In short, "The low carbon dioxide production of hypothyroidism (e.g., Lee and Levine, 1999), and the respiratory alkalosis of estrogen excess, are often overlooked. An adequate supply of calcium, and sometimes supplementation of salt and baking soda, can increase the tissue content of CO2." If a processed feed (grain) is given to animals, this causes a state of hypothyroidism due to the absorption of polyunsaturated fats. I would say the sodium bicarbonate is even more important in these situations. "Ordinarily, carbon dioxide and bicarbonate are thought of only in relation to the regulation of pH, and only in a very general way. Because of the importance of keeping the pH of the blood within a narrow range, carbon dioxide is commonly thought of as a toxin, because an excess can cause unconsciousness and acidosis. But increasing carbon dioxide doesn't necessarily cause acidosis, and acidosis caused by carbon dioxide isn't as harmful as lactic acidosis." (Ray Peat - Protective CO2 and Aging).

It seems that the effect on tissues (at the cellular level) is a major component of the benefit of CO2 levels being at appropriate concentrations. That is what I surmise from the research. "The local concentration of carbon dioxide in specific tissues and organs can be adjusted by nervous and hormonal activation or inhibition of the carbonic anhydrase enzymes, that accelerate the oonversion of CO2 to carbonic acid, H2CO3. The activity of carbonic anhydrase can determine the density and strength of the skeleton, the excitability of nerves, the accumulation of water, and can regulate the structure and function of the tissues and organs."

Enjoy.

 

[NachoFarm]

*nomad* If you get a minute would you mind checking out my recent post about sheep mineral? I posted the specs for it and the copper is 63 ppm so I'm curious if you think the mix is concerning. I won't post it here because I don't want to hijack this thread.