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Nevermind, this is not the right place for me.
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farmerjan
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I am not going to go into some of what you have addressed. But I will tell you this. I have had cattle for over 50 years. Pinkeye can occur "from out of the blue" caused by flies carrying it and it can come on from an eye irritation... Some strains of cattle are more susceptible to it. Minerals greatly help to build up immune systems. BUT once they get it treatment immediately will usually prevent it from ruining the eye and preserve the sight. And from the sounds of it, you are not willing to use antibiotics judiciously only when needed. But , that is about the only way to treat and save the eye. We also use eye patches to prevent the damage to the eye and to give them relief from the bright light. It works along with other treatment.
I will tell you that the "old farmers" methods of "throwing salt in their eye" will only cause it to water and run more and does not treat the cause.
There are pinkeye vaccines but we personally have not had much luck with them. Some others have gone the route of a vet culturing and making up an autogenuous strain to address exactly what they have in that particular area. Again, we have not gone that route.
You will not be able to raise the cattle if you are in an area of blackleg without substantial losses. There is no "natural cure" for that and when there is a rainy spell and the clostridial spores may proliferate, they will ingest them and NOTHING natural can prevent that except to keep them completely off pastures. That goes against the natural aspect of having a grazing herd. They are ingested by the animals and will lie dormant in some cattle... There is no "natural way" to prevent it if you are grazing. The cows will have a certain immunity in their colostrum, but by 6-10 weeks that has "worn off" and the calves are very susceptible.
I take issue with your comments about vaccinations and antibiotics contaminating the cows... you will not want to consume the meat if treated but would sell it. Vaccinations will not contaminate the cattle. There are diseases that cattle get, like blackleg... that is just not 100 % preventable with proper care and minerals. If there is a history of black leg and liver flukes on the property, then you are asking for losses by not doing basic vaccination for black leg. They will be dead before you even know they are sick. The vaccination costs about 1.50-2.00 each a year... pretty cheap insurance.
You might go a year, or 5 years, and if there is a sudden "bloom" of the clostridial spores, you will have losses. It happens in nature all the time. Are you willing to subject your animals to the possibility of that kind of loss??? Or your wallet? When a simple vaccination would help prevent it and make this a more profitable venture just by having more meat to put in your freezer ?
Antibiotics should not be used just for the sake of using them. There is a time and place and a reason that they are occasionally needed. If you do not want to consume that animal after the required withdrawal period, then you are free to sell it. But NOT vaccinating an animal against a disease that is easily preventible and causes a fast horrible death is not practicing good animal husbandry.
I agree with not using antibiotics for routine "health maintenance"... and it was done for many years and was the "modern way" to do it. There is a place for them in being a good steward of the herd; when other methods have failed.
We do not sew the eyelids shut on animals with pinkeye, we put patches on them. But they are treated also; so that they can get over it quickly with minimal discomfort. We have used shots in the eyelid for swelling and to give some relief for that also.
Until you have had to actually deal with handling a calf multiple times a day to try to spray some treatment in it's eye, I would not be too quick to judge. A calf in the neighborhood of 150-300 lbs is not a puppy dog. They don't do what you tell them and they can be quite a handful for a human to handle. A chute with a head catch will be essential... and the more an animal is handled for something like pinkeye treatments, the less likely it is going to want to come in. Stressing them out for that also makes it worse. One of the reasons for a one time treatment so that they can calmly go about healing.
Highlands are known for being fairly hardy animals. But if you are introducing them to pastures that have previous history of problems, they are going to get exposed and some are going to get infected.
Proper mineral supplementation is important. However, I can tell you from many dairy farmers experiments here, that offering the "compartment free choice" mineral system has been discarded because of the waste of some types. Most minerals do NOT taste good... and they will pick and chose more for the taste than for the body's requirements. You need to talk to the extension agent in the area; find out what may be deficient in the area.... BoSe is used in areas that have a selenium deficiency... and cattle will not eat enough on their own to "balance it out". We are in a selenium deficient area and it is BALANCED in the mineral mix we get.... that is formulated for this area to supplement the types of soils here.
The whole thing is BALANCING the minerals. The animal is not often going to be able to so so on their own. Too much selenium will be toxic... not enough and white muscle disease in calves is very common. B vitamins are often deficient in selenium poor areas, and are essential for the selenium to be utilized by the body.
We rotational graze our cattle to some extent. We do not use much electric because the deer are a major problem here and they just tear it down with alarming regularity. We use a week -2 week timeline at some places. We have a few that have a much larger area and they will get a section for a month and then get moved and not get back to the first section for 2-3 months. It depends.
We have been weeding out the animals more susceptible to parasites over time. We also cull for poor milking ability, for breeding, for disposition... and yes, we tend to weed out the "families of cows " that have more pinkeye problems.
Understand one thing... new animals brought in will not have much resistance to the "germs" that are on your existing pastures. It takes time to build up immunities.
An example is that people who are NOT FROM THE REGION... say Americans that go to Mexico... are advised to not drink the water... "Montezuma's revenge".... because their systems are not accustomed to the "bugs and germs and even the mineral content" of the water that the locals have no problem with.
The same goes for animals... they have to adapt to a new place and the water and the grasses. It does not happen overnight.
You can not "fix" this herd. You can supplement it to help them build up immunities to cope with some things... to help make them healthier. But you are not going to find that just giving them minerals will make all their previous susceptibilities just magically get "fixed". It will go a long way to making their systems stronger and able to cope better...
Grain free is fine... but you had better make sure that their forages are providing the necessary basic levels of protein and such or you will be shortchanging the cattle in a different way.
I am not a big believer in feeding cattle old stale bakery waste... but it is actually not a bad source of providing some of the needed trace minerals..... cheap was the way to go and some still do it to this day. Not my thing. But cows love to eat bread... we use it as a treat when going out to check on them. I prefer to use grain, and all my animals will come to call into the catch pens for a bucket of grain. It teaches them to come when called and makes catching them up alot less stressful than chasing them through the field. We will do some grain feeding in the fall and winter... and to teach them to come in and ALWAYS give them a treat of a little grain or something when they do cooperate.... But no matter how "tame" they are not going to just stand around when you are trying to treat them for a disease or an injury or anything, if they are hurting. And they will hurt you if you do not know that you are doing.
There is a compromise way between you and your partner's way of doing things.
Organic is fine... but LOCAL and homeraised is better.... there is a happy medium that will be financially smart and ethical.
I will tell you that the "old farmers" methods of "throwing salt in their eye" will only cause it to water and run more and does not treat the cause.
There are pinkeye vaccines but we personally have not had much luck with them. Some others have gone the route of a vet culturing and making up an autogenuous strain to address exactly what they have in that particular area. Again, we have not gone that route.
You will not be able to raise the cattle if you are in an area of blackleg without substantial losses. There is no "natural cure" for that and when there is a rainy spell and the clostridial spores may proliferate, they will ingest them and NOTHING natural can prevent that except to keep them completely off pastures. That goes against the natural aspect of having a grazing herd. They are ingested by the animals and will lie dormant in some cattle... There is no "natural way" to prevent it if you are grazing. The cows will have a certain immunity in their colostrum, but by 6-10 weeks that has "worn off" and the calves are very susceptible.
I take issue with your comments about vaccinations and antibiotics contaminating the cows... you will not want to consume the meat if treated but would sell it. Vaccinations will not contaminate the cattle. There are diseases that cattle get, like blackleg... that is just not 100 % preventable with proper care and minerals. If there is a history of black leg and liver flukes on the property, then you are asking for losses by not doing basic vaccination for black leg. They will be dead before you even know they are sick. The vaccination costs about 1.50-2.00 each a year... pretty cheap insurance.
You might go a year, or 5 years, and if there is a sudden "bloom" of the clostridial spores, you will have losses. It happens in nature all the time. Are you willing to subject your animals to the possibility of that kind of loss??? Or your wallet? When a simple vaccination would help prevent it and make this a more profitable venture just by having more meat to put in your freezer ?
Antibiotics should not be used just for the sake of using them. There is a time and place and a reason that they are occasionally needed. If you do not want to consume that animal after the required withdrawal period, then you are free to sell it. But NOT vaccinating an animal against a disease that is easily preventible and causes a fast horrible death is not practicing good animal husbandry.
I agree with not using antibiotics for routine "health maintenance"... and it was done for many years and was the "modern way" to do it. There is a place for them in being a good steward of the herd; when other methods have failed.
We do not sew the eyelids shut on animals with pinkeye, we put patches on them. But they are treated also; so that they can get over it quickly with minimal discomfort. We have used shots in the eyelid for swelling and to give some relief for that also.
Until you have had to actually deal with handling a calf multiple times a day to try to spray some treatment in it's eye, I would not be too quick to judge. A calf in the neighborhood of 150-300 lbs is not a puppy dog. They don't do what you tell them and they can be quite a handful for a human to handle. A chute with a head catch will be essential... and the more an animal is handled for something like pinkeye treatments, the less likely it is going to want to come in. Stressing them out for that also makes it worse. One of the reasons for a one time treatment so that they can calmly go about healing.
Highlands are known for being fairly hardy animals. But if you are introducing them to pastures that have previous history of problems, they are going to get exposed and some are going to get infected.
Proper mineral supplementation is important. However, I can tell you from many dairy farmers experiments here, that offering the "compartment free choice" mineral system has been discarded because of the waste of some types. Most minerals do NOT taste good... and they will pick and chose more for the taste than for the body's requirements. You need to talk to the extension agent in the area; find out what may be deficient in the area.... BoSe is used in areas that have a selenium deficiency... and cattle will not eat enough on their own to "balance it out". We are in a selenium deficient area and it is BALANCED in the mineral mix we get.... that is formulated for this area to supplement the types of soils here.
The whole thing is BALANCING the minerals. The animal is not often going to be able to so so on their own. Too much selenium will be toxic... not enough and white muscle disease in calves is very common. B vitamins are often deficient in selenium poor areas, and are essential for the selenium to be utilized by the body.
We rotational graze our cattle to some extent. We do not use much electric because the deer are a major problem here and they just tear it down with alarming regularity. We use a week -2 week timeline at some places. We have a few that have a much larger area and they will get a section for a month and then get moved and not get back to the first section for 2-3 months. It depends.
We have been weeding out the animals more susceptible to parasites over time. We also cull for poor milking ability, for breeding, for disposition... and yes, we tend to weed out the "families of cows " that have more pinkeye problems.
Understand one thing... new animals brought in will not have much resistance to the "germs" that are on your existing pastures. It takes time to build up immunities.
An example is that people who are NOT FROM THE REGION... say Americans that go to Mexico... are advised to not drink the water... "Montezuma's revenge".... because their systems are not accustomed to the "bugs and germs and even the mineral content" of the water that the locals have no problem with.
The same goes for animals... they have to adapt to a new place and the water and the grasses. It does not happen overnight.
You can not "fix" this herd. You can supplement it to help them build up immunities to cope with some things... to help make them healthier. But you are not going to find that just giving them minerals will make all their previous susceptibilities just magically get "fixed". It will go a long way to making their systems stronger and able to cope better...
Grain free is fine... but you had better make sure that their forages are providing the necessary basic levels of protein and such or you will be shortchanging the cattle in a different way.
I am not a big believer in feeding cattle old stale bakery waste... but it is actually not a bad source of providing some of the needed trace minerals..... cheap was the way to go and some still do it to this day. Not my thing. But cows love to eat bread... we use it as a treat when going out to check on them. I prefer to use grain, and all my animals will come to call into the catch pens for a bucket of grain. It teaches them to come when called and makes catching them up alot less stressful than chasing them through the field. We will do some grain feeding in the fall and winter... and to teach them to come in and ALWAYS give them a treat of a little grain or something when they do cooperate.... But no matter how "tame" they are not going to just stand around when you are trying to treat them for a disease or an injury or anything, if they are hurting. And they will hurt you if you do not know that you are doing.
There is a compromise way between you and your partner's way of doing things.
Organic is fine... but LOCAL and homeraised is better.... there is a happy medium that will be financially smart and ethical.
Last edited:
frustratedearthmother
Herd Master
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@Xatra - it's a shame that you got upset by getting sound advice from someone who has "been there, done that."
She took the time to type out a lot of good information for you - even if you didn't like what was said. A simple "thank you" would have been nice even if it wasn't what you wanted to hear.
She took the time to type out a lot of good information for you - even if you didn't like what was said. A simple "thank you" would have been nice even if it wasn't what you wanted to hear.
farmerjan
Herd Master
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2016
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- 13,551
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- 58,045
- Points
- 768
- Location
- Shenandoah Valley Virginia
I tried to be more practical in my explanation because this person seems to think that all that her partner has done is wrong, and all that she reads is the right way. I admire places that do "all organic"... I know of 2 dairies here that are certified and ship organic milk. BUT.... if a cow has a problem, and she has to be treated, she can no longer be a part of the herd. One of my other farmer's has taken cows that had say, coliform mastitis, which is VERY bad and deadly in many cases.... but if caught early, will respond to antibiotics; this farmer would get the cows from the organic farmer who had to treat them or bury them... and after the proper with holding time, has wound up with some very good cows. If you don't address an animal's problem/sickness you will bury it. Where is that humane or being a good caretaker of the animal.
Blackleg is a horrible and fast disease. We rented a pasture for several years and one year after a wet spring, all of a sudden had 3 calves die in a week's time... no obvious signs.... had the vet out, and he immediately realized it was blackleg. We hadn't had trouble there before that. Anyone that reads up on it will realize it is not something that you can prevent through just rotational grazing and such.
You give your dogs and many cats rabies vaccines to prevent the disease in the case they are exposed to it. Mostly it is an animal that has gone to the stage of being aggressive and biting ... but it can be transmitted from a dog nosing a recently died rabid animal that has the paralytic variety. It can get passed from an animal that has not yet developed to the aggressive stage, yet their saliva can carry the virus... A simple vaccination prevents the chances of them contracting it. It is the same idea with blackleg vaccinations. It is a killed virus vaccine... it is mostly for calves as their immune systems are not as developed. We do not always give it to the cows because they have developed an immunity to it as they get older. If it is an area that is known to have blackleg outbreaks, you give them the shot. All our calves get it ... and we don't bury calves for a preventable problem. You lose enough to other things that might not be foreseen or able to prevent.
And yes, cattle can get rabies... and there is a vaccine for it.... and I know of 2 herds here local that have had it in their cattle and had to do shots and bury the animal that wound up with it. It is not something that you routinely vaccinate cattle for because their risk of contracting it is very small... One of my dairies had a cat on the farm get rabies... everyone on the farm had to get the rabies shots and all cattle had to go directly to slaughter if they left the farm, for 6 months due to exposure...
We have a neighbor that has lost 3, 250 + lb. calves in the last week. The vet suspects blackleg. The owner said he cannot get anyone to help him work the cattle though the chute... and it is a PITA to do them there... BUT..... That is losing a whole year's production of that cow... so you will not get a "paycheck" back from her for 2 years now....How many cattlemen or farmers... big or small.....can afford to bury $500-1,000 the worth of EACH animal in a year...for lack of a preventative vaccination. Either upgrade your facilities when you are running that number of cattle, or do something.... I suspect that he is going to ask DS to come help. And he will and I will also go help if only to fill syringes and such if they need me.
This is what I was trying to get across to @Xatra .... you cannot just go in and do things like that when there are extenuating circumstances... like the prevalence of blackleg and liver flukes in that pasture area. The pinkeye is also something that some years it is bad, some years it is non-existent.
I wish them luck. It is hard to see where 2 people with 2 very different backgrounds will find a compromise when one does not have any practical experience and the other has always "done it the way his family did it".....
I wish I had done my answer as a "reply" so that I still had the original post to see if there was something else I could have said better.
By the way, my beef is 99% grain free, grass fed beef. I don't finish cattle on grain, they get a little for treats and training.... and they get some corn in the silage.
I hope that this person never gets sick and finds out that an antibiotic is the best or only way to fight an infection....that their life depends on it..... there is a place for it. I totally agree that they are way overused in many cases... as a preventative that only makes "bugs" build up an immunity to them and then if they get sick, there isn't anything that works. We use them very sparingly... and I would rather vaccinate for preventing a disease as well as building up the animal's immunity and culling animals that do not thrive. But I am not going to let an animal suffer, like with pinkeye, if I can fight it and help them get over it as fast as possible. One of the reasons why we also use the dart gun on them at pasture. Less stress getting all the animals up and worked through a chute and such where their stress levels get elevated. This year we used rabon molasses supplement blocks that helps to stop flies from reproducing... a feed through larvacide that stops the fly larvae from developing in the animals manure after the flies lay their eggs... and feeding garlic in the mineral that helps to keep as many flies from bothering the cattle and landing on them.... all sorts of tricks to lower the fly populations.
Blackleg is a horrible and fast disease. We rented a pasture for several years and one year after a wet spring, all of a sudden had 3 calves die in a week's time... no obvious signs.... had the vet out, and he immediately realized it was blackleg. We hadn't had trouble there before that. Anyone that reads up on it will realize it is not something that you can prevent through just rotational grazing and such.
You give your dogs and many cats rabies vaccines to prevent the disease in the case they are exposed to it. Mostly it is an animal that has gone to the stage of being aggressive and biting ... but it can be transmitted from a dog nosing a recently died rabid animal that has the paralytic variety. It can get passed from an animal that has not yet developed to the aggressive stage, yet their saliva can carry the virus... A simple vaccination prevents the chances of them contracting it. It is the same idea with blackleg vaccinations. It is a killed virus vaccine... it is mostly for calves as their immune systems are not as developed. We do not always give it to the cows because they have developed an immunity to it as they get older. If it is an area that is known to have blackleg outbreaks, you give them the shot. All our calves get it ... and we don't bury calves for a preventable problem. You lose enough to other things that might not be foreseen or able to prevent.
And yes, cattle can get rabies... and there is a vaccine for it.... and I know of 2 herds here local that have had it in their cattle and had to do shots and bury the animal that wound up with it. It is not something that you routinely vaccinate cattle for because their risk of contracting it is very small... One of my dairies had a cat on the farm get rabies... everyone on the farm had to get the rabies shots and all cattle had to go directly to slaughter if they left the farm, for 6 months due to exposure...
We have a neighbor that has lost 3, 250 + lb. calves in the last week. The vet suspects blackleg. The owner said he cannot get anyone to help him work the cattle though the chute... and it is a PITA to do them there... BUT..... That is losing a whole year's production of that cow... so you will not get a "paycheck" back from her for 2 years now....How many cattlemen or farmers... big or small.....can afford to bury $500-1,000 the worth of EACH animal in a year...for lack of a preventative vaccination. Either upgrade your facilities when you are running that number of cattle, or do something.... I suspect that he is going to ask DS to come help. And he will and I will also go help if only to fill syringes and such if they need me.
This is what I was trying to get across to @Xatra .... you cannot just go in and do things like that when there are extenuating circumstances... like the prevalence of blackleg and liver flukes in that pasture area. The pinkeye is also something that some years it is bad, some years it is non-existent.
I wish them luck. It is hard to see where 2 people with 2 very different backgrounds will find a compromise when one does not have any practical experience and the other has always "done it the way his family did it".....
I wish I had done my answer as a "reply" so that I still had the original post to see if there was something else I could have said better.
By the way, my beef is 99% grain free, grass fed beef. I don't finish cattle on grain, they get a little for treats and training.... and they get some corn in the silage.
I hope that this person never gets sick and finds out that an antibiotic is the best or only way to fight an infection....that their life depends on it..... there is a place for it. I totally agree that they are way overused in many cases... as a preventative that only makes "bugs" build up an immunity to them and then if they get sick, there isn't anything that works. We use them very sparingly... and I would rather vaccinate for preventing a disease as well as building up the animal's immunity and culling animals that do not thrive. But I am not going to let an animal suffer, like with pinkeye, if I can fight it and help them get over it as fast as possible. One of the reasons why we also use the dart gun on them at pasture. Less stress getting all the animals up and worked through a chute and such where their stress levels get elevated. This year we used rabon molasses supplement blocks that helps to stop flies from reproducing... a feed through larvacide that stops the fly larvae from developing in the animals manure after the flies lay their eggs... and feeding garlic in the mineral that helps to keep as many flies from bothering the cattle and landing on them.... all sorts of tricks to lower the fly populations.
Last edited:
Baymule
Herd Master
@farmerjan I didn't get to read the OP's post before it was deleted. While I read your post, which by the way, was, outstanding, I was thinking how sad it is when people refuse to listen to wisdom and hasten to foolishness. You tried.
