Okay, I'm pretty sure they are seizures... she died today.

[dianneS]

Last winter I was in a great deal of distress with my little runt doe. No one could diagnose her problem and she has seen three vets. The only thing anyone can verify is that she has a heart murmur. At one point a vet thought she had pneumonia, just from listening to her lungs, but that was a misdiagnosis. Twice last winter, I thought she needed to be put out of her misery and twice I called the vet to come out and put her down. Twice I called back and said "don't bother, she'll be okay." She had had several of these episodes lasting from several hours to nearly two days.

I've never seen one of her "episodes" begin. I usually catch them in the middle. This summer, she's been squeezing under the fence and "free-ranging". Its fine since she never goes far and always squeezes back in with the rest of the herd eventually. Well, she's been more spry and energetic than she's ever been in her life! However, her episodes usually only occur in the winter months and they seem to be aggrivated by cold and DAMP in particular. Another symptom is that her body temp drops dangerously low when she has one of these fits.

Its starting to get cold, so I've been watching her closely for any of these fits to occur again. I got to see one yesterday. It sure as heck looked like a seizure. She snapped out of this one rather quickly. I'm thinking that they are aggrivated by stress. Perhaps the cold weather is stressful for her as well? Tonight she had another mini one. This one was also triggered by another stressful situation (caused by one of my drama queen does).

So, does anyone have any advice for how to deal with a goat with seizures? Any suggestions on reducing her stress levels, or helping her cope with stressful situations? And what should I do about the cold weather, it has such a negative impact on her.

 

[cmjust0]

Ok, so this seems to happen more as the weather gets cold and damp, and her body temp seems to drop when she has one... Interesting..

I'm wondering....could it be the other way around? As in, could she be having seizures *because* her body temp is dropping to dangerously low levels?

Think about it like your house's HVAC.. During the summer, the a/c system is working to keep the house cool; during the winter, it's in heat mode working to keep the house warm warm.. My thinking is that perhaps this doe's body works find in 'a/c mode' -- that is, when her body temp regulatory system is trying to stay cool -- but as soon as she goes into 'heat mode,' something goes haywire..

I just went back and read a bit of your original posts on the matter.. Something struck me.. You said she would often lay down and pant after one of these episodes... I don't see my goats pant very often, and it only happens when they're REALLY HOT.. And I mean like...jet black, bred late and therefore extremely pregnant in like JUNE, walking uphill in cloudless midday sun.. They'll pant like dogs when they get that hot..

And in thinking of that, something else came to mind...a phenomenon known as "paradoxical undressing." It's not at all uncommon to find victims of hypothermia naked, and dead.. The kneejerk reaction is to assume they died *because* they were naked, or that they were mentally ill or something like that, but that's not what happens.. What happens is that they got so cold that the body shunted blood flow to the core -- to the vital organs.. Their extremities got no blood at all, and yeah...they got really, really cold and numb.. Shunting bloodflow to the core takes a lot of energy, and eventually the body will lose its ability to restrict the flow of blood and WHOOSH...the victim gets a rush of core-warm blood to freezing cold arms, legs, fingers and toes.. Now, if you've ever gotten your hands really, really cold -- to the point that you can't feel them -- and then come inside and made the painful mistake of warming them up too quickly, you know how bad that BURNS.. It feels like your hands are on fire, right? Well, imagine that sensation across your entire body and it becomes pretty obvious why a hypothermia-addled victim might feel absolutely compelled to shed all their clothes in an effort to "cool off."

The goat version of that may be a goat that's suddenly gotten a rush of blood back to its skin and extremeties, and is panting to cool off -- despite having a dangerously low body temperature.. I'm not saying that's definitely what it is, of course...but there's some scientific precedence for such a theory!

Either way...what I'm hearing makes me *seriously* wonder is if this goat's body is, for whatever reason, simply unable to maintain a regular temperature in cold weather.. Perhaps her skin doesn't sense cold the way it should, and so the body doesn't react? Perhaps there's something wrong with her hypothalamus? Could be any number of things, but I'll tell you this much.....if only for the sake of science, I'd throw a goat-coat on this one and see if the number of incidents decreases..

I'd also start looking into temperature-regulating drugs, and I'd put a bug in my vet's ear about my theory to get their take on it..

 

[elevan]

Dianne - I'm sorry you're going through this again.

Here's the previous discussion on this goat for anyone trying to help: http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=9450


The drug that I have experience using for seizures in mammals is Phenobarbital. It might be worth a try. You can get it as drops or pills.

 

[Livinwright Farm]

Ok, so this seems to happen more as the weather gets cold and damp, and her body temp seems to drop when she has one... Interesting..

I'm wondering....could it be the other way around? As in, could she be having seizures *because* her body temp is dropping to dangerously low levels?

Think about it like your house's HVAC.. During the summer, the a/c system is working to keep the house cool; during the winter, it's in heat mode working to keep the house warm warm.. My thinking is that perhaps this doe's body works find in 'a/c mode' -- that is, when her body temp regulatory system is trying to stay cool -- but as soon as she goes into 'heat mode,' something goes haywire..

I just went back and read a bit of your original posts on the matter.. Something struck me.. You said she would often lay down and pant after one of these episodes... I don't see my goats pant very often, and it only happens when they're REALLY HOT.. And I mean like...jet black, bred late and therefore extremely pregnant in like JUNE, walking uphill in cloudless midday sun.. They'll pant like dogs when they get that hot..

And in thinking of that, something else came to mind...a phenomenon known as "paradoxical undressing." It's not at all uncommon to find victims of hypothermia naked, and dead.. The kneejerk reaction is to assume they died *because* they were naked, or that they were mentally ill or something like that, but that's not what happens.. What happens is that they got so cold that the body shunted blood flow to the core -- to the vital organs.. Their extremities got no blood at all, and yeah...they got really, really cold and numb.. Shunting bloodflow to the core takes a lot of energy, and eventually the body will lose its ability to restrict the flow of blood and WHOOSH...the victim gets a rush of core-warm blood to freezing cold arms, legs, fingers and toes.. Now, if you've ever gotten your hands really, really cold -- to the point that you can't feel them -- and then come inside and made the painful mistake of warming them up too quickly, you know how bad that BURNS.. It feels like your hands are on fire, right? Well, imagine that sensation across your entire body and it becomes pretty obvious why a hypothermia-addled victim might feel absolutely compelled to shed all their clothes in an effort to "cool off."

The goat version of that may be a goat that's suddenly gotten a rush of blood back to its skin and extremeties, and is panting to cool off -- despite having a dangerously low body temperature.. I'm not saying that's definitely what it is, of course...but there's some scientific precedence for such a theory!

Either way...what I'm hearing makes me *seriously* wonder is if this goat's body is, for whatever reason, simply unable to maintain a regular temperature in cold weather.. Perhaps her skin doesn't sense cold the way it should, and so the body doesn't react? Perhaps there's something wrong with her hypothalamus? Could be any number of things, but I'll tell you this much.....if only for the sake of science, I'd throw a goat-coat on this one and see if the number of incidents decreases..

I'd also start looking into temperature-regulating drugs, and I'd put a bug in my vet's ear about my theory to get their take on it..

I hope you and your vet can find what her issue is.

I think cmjust0 could be onto something. Which has me wondering, is the goat disbudded/dehorned? If so, I am wondering if potentially something happened during the process that caused her internal HVAC system to go on the fritz. It is a known fact that a fair amount of a goat's cooling system is found in their horns(by way of blood circulation). Either way(disbudded or horns intact), perhaps you could make sure that she has(make her a quilted one, cause I have found NO thick goat coats) a thick warm coat to keep her body nice and warm and try to keep her in the barn as much as possible during the winter. See if these changes help keep her from having these attacks. If there is a temperature regulating drug, I second trying to get her on one. It could also be the stress of breeding season... this is the time of year for heat/rut too after-all.

 

[dianneS]

No, she is naturally polled, never been disbudded.

The strange thing about her panting is that her body temp is super low, even when panting and her gums and lips are usually pale. She got a bit upset last night and had a mini-fit (it was very warm yesterday) due to the herd being chased by my pony. She was really panting at that time and visibly distressed but snapped out of it quickly.

The other strange thing is that these episodes will occur beginning in the fall, even though the majority of these fits happen on cold days, she's had a few of them on warm days too. She's had a handful of these fits on 60-70 degree days.

Being able to free-range this summer and browse on specific weeds and plants seems to have done a lot of good for her. I'm almost wondering if there is something she is eating during the growing season that is keeping these fits at bay? Could it be the drop in the nutrients of the plants that is causing this? I'm just thinking in that direction since some of her fits don't correspond with outdoor temps at times, so maybe its the dying off of the plant matter? Just an idea since winter brings not only cold, but dead and dying pasture grasses too.

I am planning to get her a goat coat this year. I waterproof one that I can leave on her all of the time, its just not cold enough yet. We're still having 70 degree days here, but it drops into the 40's at night.

 

[cmjust0]

Since we're miles away from nailing anything down, I wouldn't dream of throwing anything out, so yeah...keep diet in mind. My gut tells me that's not it, but who knows.. As for warm days vs. cool days not necessarily making a difference, consider also that our bodies aren't only keeping track of ambient temperatures to tell us what time of the year it is -- and what to do about it.. We also read the length of day, and whether it's 30 or 80 on a given day, the length of day always shortens from day to day in the Fall.. Which is to say, even when it's 60, their bodies are still aware that winter's coming..

I also have to say that I find it interesting you'd say she was a runt, almost died shortly after birth, and that she's naturally polled.. That's actually why I'm leaning away from diet.. I just have a feeling that this one was born different.

 

[dianneS]

I just have a feeling that this one was born different.

Oh yeah, I've come to terms with that. Since no vet can give us a clear diagnosis and the only thing they can find is a heart murmer and seizure like behavior with drops in body temp, I've just accepted the fact that she's just not quite "normal". We're going to try and keep her healthy and happy for as long as we can, but I have prepared myself for the day she may just have an episode she won't recover from. She is just "different" indeed. I really do think however, that she is experiencing a seizure type of attack rather than a heart issue. I had a golden retriever years ago who had siezures too and they had no rhym or reason to them and each one was different.

The main factors that seem to contribute to these fits are: Cold, damp weather, physical exertion (being chased by a mini horse), stress (herd mates upset, being chased by a mini horse again), and they only occur in the fall and winter. I guess all I can really do is #1. Keep her as warm and dry as possible, #2. Keep that da*m mini horse away from her! #3. Reduce any drama or stress in the herd and keep her well fed and nourished... #4. Hope for the best!

 

[RareBreedFancier]

I'm sorry you and your sweet doe are both going through this.

I think cmjust0 might be onto something with the seizures being caused by her dangerously low body temp.

I know when my DH was very ill his internal temperature system went off the rails for a while. His body temp would drop dangerously low and I was warned by his specialist if I noticed him looking 'off' to take his temp because if it dropped to low he could go into convolutions. It was aggravated by stress and he spent months pretty much in bed with me taking care of everything and trying to make his life stress free. He did have some episodes on hot weather but it was much worse in cold weather.

I wonder if the reason she's been better over summer isn't because of what she's eating when she escapes but because she's not dealing with herd politics and other critters stressing her?

 

[dianneS]

I wonder if the reason she's been better over summer isn't because of what she's eating when she escapes but because she's not dealing with herd politics and other critters stressing her?

Could be. She's still able to escape these days and the only time she's had one of these episodes is when I open the gates and allow the others to graze in the big pasture with her (since their small pasture is getting over grazed this time of year). When the drama ensues due to the herd not being accustomed to the new surroundings, she flies into one of her fits.

 

[WhiteWaterFarms]

Any news? i feel for your little girl. she sounds so cute. Wishing you the best with controlling the episodes.