Two horse behaviour issues i need help with ;-)

[Countrymom]

I KNOW this isn't going to be a popular thing to advice, but let me tell you from experience biting is a MAJOR no no and turns very dangerous if not addressed quickly and proptly. Your horse, if he were in my training program, would get one swift smack upside the head if he put his mouth near me. It would not be out of anger or be a beating over and over that same time. Just one hard smack and let him throw his head away and be done with it. If he tried again, which most biters test off and on, the same thing would happen. I don't mess around with biting as I have seen a grown man nearly picked up off the ground by a horse grabbing the back of his arm while he was about to mount. Needless to say his reaction was far worse than mine, but the horse never tried it again. Pinching lips, staying away from his mouth, and the gentle bump with an elbow obviously isn't working for you with this horse. A biting horse if not found to be from pain issues is a matter of alpha behaviour and not in the human favor. If he were in a herd and bit the alpha mare she would kick the you know what out of him and it would be over and done with. Same goes for humans as our reaction should be in their language.

Now, the usual response to hitting a horse upside the head is that your are going to make them head shy. Well, I don't care for a horse putting his/her head in my space without asking anyhow. And if one hit were to make them head shy, then one hit with the whip would make them want to kick you all the time. It just isn't a truth if practiced right with a bitter.

As for pawing the ground, it may never be something you fix. However, I am a fan of standing a horse tied for a good time period and if they continue to paw, I would put hobbles on their front feet to teach them to hold those feet still. In fact, hobble training has become part of our training program....and especially with our pony program. It really helps teach them to stand quiet.

 

[Pardenx3]

Both of your issues are generaly out of disrespect. My Belgian used to be "nippy" when he was younger. Everytime he would go to nip, I would raise my elbow, fist etc.. and let him bop his own nose into me. Then he was like, "where did that come from"? Between that and some age he has stopped. As far as the pawing, there are a number of different ways to correct it, depending on when he is doing it. When tied? When standing under saddle impatiently... Mine have never done it while tied, but I have had some to do it standing still under saddle. As soon as the horse starts the pawing I will ask the horse to start moving alot. Get the feet going. I'm talking work, like a good trot in circles etc.... Then ask to stand still again. Continue this until the horse figures out, that its a lot easier to stand still than to have to work. Its like horse reverse psycology. It may take awile, or it may be quick. Just depends on the horse.

 

[miss_thenorth]

Thanks. He's more lippy than he is nippy. The bite was out of the blue, as he had never done that before. But I saw it as just an extension of his lipping. Since I have posted my OP, I have made it clear to everyone--including hubby who thinks its cute when he lips, that it is not an acceptable thing for him to do. What must be done instead, is a loud NO, followed with direct eye contact. wouldnt you know--Thunder picked up on that real quick.

As for the pawing, it usually happens while he's eating, standing around waiting for food, or just standing in the paddock. When he paws while waiting for food, we ignore him and wait until he's been still a while before getting his food.

Just lately,(like the last week) he's been doing it in the cross ties while being groomed. He has done it once under saddle. So then, what you are saying is, if he does it again under saddle, to turn him in a trot and then make him stand still again? Will do. And for pawing in the cross ties, might be a bit tricky to bop him in the nose/neck while you are grooming him near the back end, but we will work on this. Would a poke in the ribs work too, if we are not close to his front end? We will also give a loud NO to him if he is doing it again in the cross ties. As I said earlier too, he is due for a trim on Sunday, so we will see if it is a hoof/frog issue or if it is disrespect.

 

[Pardenx3]

Thanks. He's more lippy than he is nippy. The bite was out of the blue, as he had never done that before. But I saw it as just an extension of his lipping. Since I have posted my OP, I have made it clear to everyone--including hubby who thinks its cute when he lips, that it is not an acceptable thing for him to do. What must be done instead, is a loud NO, followed with direct eye contact. wouldnt you know--Thunder picked up on that real quick.

As for the pawing, it usually happens while he's eating, standing around waiting for food, or just standing in the paddock. When he paws while waiting for food, we ignore him and wait until he's been still a while before getting his food.

Just lately,(like the last week) he's been doing it in the cross ties while being groomed. He has done it once under saddle. So then, what you are saying is, if he does it again under saddle, to turn him in a trot and then make him stand still again? Will do. And for pawing in the cross ties, might be a bit tricky to bop him in the nose/neck while you are grooming him near the back end, but we will work on this. Would a poke in the ribs work too, if we are not close to his front end? We will also give a loud NO to him if he is doing it again in the cross ties. As I said earlier too, he is due for a trim on Sunday, so we will see if it is a hoof/frog issue or if it is disrespect.

Lipping will lead to all out biting if not stopped. A bad disrespectful habit. Yes, under saddle and he starts it, put him to work, make him move for a bit then rest. Eventualy, he will realize "man, I don't like the moving my feet so much. Its a lot easier to just stand here and do nothing". It may take time, so be patient and keep at it. With the feed he's just anxious to eat, but in cross ties is just being impatient. It wouldn't hurt to tie him and just leave him for hours if need be. Patience is a virtue. Think about a roping horse waiting to rope outside an arena tied or with rider. They are calm, with heads hung down most of the time. That is because they spend so much time waiting. and waiting....... Just tie him and leave him while you are doing yard work, washing vehicles etc.... Horse reverse psycology. I had a mare one time who while lunging would suddenly swing around and face me then go in reverse away. OK, I thaught lets do that if you want to. So next time she did it, I started MAKING her go backwards almost at a run by snapping the chain on the lunge, until she decided to stop on her own. Then I asked her to walk forward on the lunge normal. She tried that a couple more times and finaly decided backwards was a whole lot harder than forward. One thing to remember- MAKE THE WRONG THING HARD AND THE RIGHT THING EASY.

 

[Hound]

One of my previous horses used to paw, mainly out of boredom. When she got older and learned to stand tied in cross-ties or a hitching post she didn't paw quite so much.

Your horse needs to get clocked with an elbow when he THINKS about biting, timing needs to be perfect. The biting indicates that HE is alpha, not you or daughter, so you need to show him that you are in charge. An elbow in the side of his neck and a loud "No" will probably work. Just be sure to be confident around him. Widen eyes when you correct him, horses understand body language very well. I've seen too many horses get away with biting and other poor ground manners because the owners are too afraid to discipline them. I would never advocate needless violence against a horse, but in a pasture or wild setting, they do interact physically.

So, stand tall, walk straight up to him, go about your routine, when picking out hooves, stand a little ways away and watch your peripheral vision. If he does bite again, stand up tall, widen eyes, smack his neck and say in that deep, trainer voice "NO!". If you can get your elbow to get him in the mouth as he comes at you, so much the better. Again, timing is everything. If you do not discipline the horse in a second or two, he will not know what he is being punished for.

But first, check hooves, teeth & even back to rule out physical pain.

Our horses know we are the boss(es).

I would hazard a guess that this one doesn't

 

[horseshoe]

I've got a mini who had the same vice.

I learned that in order for him to stop biting or mouthing, that I needed to assure him that being around me was pleasant.

I started to play with his muzzle and when he let me touch without incident, I gave him a treat. It's been about 3 months now and he has come around to the point of me touching had holding his muzzle, then he licks my palm. I tell him Good Boy! and treat.

This takes time and patience, but is well worth the investment. I don't believe in the beating or whacking treatment. Would you like to be around someone that was constantly beating on you?

As far as pawing, it could be several things from a bad foot to just boredom. Check each thing and then continue until you discover the cause of the habit.

 

[dianneS]

My mare used to paw. She did it out of impatience. Always when waiting for food or standing in cross ties for too long. I would just yell at her to stop, or smack her pawing leg and she'd get the hint. Now, only when she's really, really excited about getting fed or getting a treat, she picks her foot up and holds it there, like a begging dog! She knows better than to paw the ground, so she just holds her foot up! Its kind of cute, so I let her do it. Sometimes if her food is particularly yummy, she will hold her foot up while she eats and she'll turn and look at me like "this is sooooooo good!!!!!!!" she can barely contain herself.

My gelding was a bit nippy, and he gets smacked on the nose for it. If he ever really bites, he gets a really big smack on the nose! I practice with him, touching him around his mouth and nose and if he allows me to handle those areas and doesn't get lippy or nippy, I praise him. Its working.

 

[miss_thenorth]

I would hazard a guess that this one doesn't

Well, considering he is only 4yo, and has only bit twice, I'm thinking it's not a matter of knowing who's boss, but testing his limits.

He is a very lippy horse, and always has been. since I posted this back in April, he has not bit, and we have stopped all hands to the mouth area, except for treats, being disciplined with a firm NO if he ever does anything that is not asked for. I am not into making him head shy, so no hitting was involved in his discipline. His lippiness has diminished almost entirely, but he is still an 'in your face' horse.

The pawing is definitely a boredom and excitement thing. Again, we disciplined by leaving him in the crossties for extended periods of time, correcting with a firm NO if he pawed out of boredom/anticipation. He still paws while he eats, but since he eats while no human is present, we have not worked hard on correcting thispart of the pawing.

 

[currycomb]

WHAT??????you are hand feeding treats???????STOP!!!!!!he already has a mouth issue, and your hands provide treats. what happens when you don't have a treat, he gets mad and bites. all treats go in a bucket, then feed him. no bare hands

 

[adoptedbyachicken]

Personally I'd take the sugar out of his diet totally. No treats and no grains. Good hay, a mineral/salt lick and water. He is acting much like those on too high a sugar diet, some just can't take much sugar at all. For sure no hand treats at all, ever till he totally quits this. Sugar in the diet leads to many issues and biting is only one of them, also cinchy and heel pain which can trigger biting at cinch up or mounting.

I'd do more ground work too, he is testing the limits or just plain not respecting them. Use the ground games to teach and practice staying out of your space and gaining respect with moving his hips. Also the John Lyons way of dealing with a mouthy horse is very good. Basically if he puts his lips on you make him accept your hand right in his mouth, work over his tongue and teeth, gently check his entire inside of his mouth out, do a proper oral exam. Every time. Ya, that makes them think way more about not putting their mouth out there. More than a good smack IMO that just makes them more sneaky about how they lip or bite you. Also some are just curious, if you did this right at the beginning when it was just curious he would have gotten over it by knowing, now it's a game and a habit, that's harder.

Your dh needs to change his tune too, anyone that thinks this is fun is encouraging the horse regardless of if they think they are or not. I hope he sees the bite your daughter got as serious because it is. My hubby used to play with his horse's lip, flipping it with a finger for 'fun' till he got a chomp. Never listened to me but the horse got his attention.