Hello from southwestern Ohio. Goat chasing issues with our male Anatolian (21 months)

[Justjoan]

Greetings from Southwest Ohio

We moved to our 30-acre farm 2 years ago. The land had been unattended for the previous 5 years due to the then-owner's illness. To say we were overrun with packs of coyotes is an understatement. We brought home this brother and sister team when they were 3 months old. We purchased them from a reputable breeder. Just the presence of the pups on our property sent the coyotes packing.

Fast-forward a year or so--we have added 5 Nigerian Dwarf goats to the farm. We have 2 barns. The goats and dogs live in the smaller barn, but in different gated areas of the barn. The dogs have been slowly introduced to the goats and are NEVER left alone with them. Our female, Kaia, does really well with them 90% of the time. She's gentle, calm, and knows she's not supposed to chase them even when they run. But bring her brother onto the scene, and things tend to go downhill quickly. The second the goats make an abrupt move, the chase is on. We always have him on a long leash rope, and we've followed the steps for training your ASD to guard livestock. We correct and reward with kibble--yet his behavior with them is worsening. The goats are just plain scared of him at this point. We're not sure what to do next. Do we attempt to start their training over?

Tonight's training session was especially challenging. King was leashed as usual. My husband was standing on the lead as he instructed both dogs to be gentle with the goats. When one of the goats startled at something (who knows what), King ran to chase. The lead flew out from under my husband's foot, and things went downhill from there. We were finally able to grab the rope and stop him. By this time, the goats were cowering in a corner.

We realize he is not 2 years old yet. But we really thought we'd be a little further along in his training at this point. I feel like we're moving backwards. We have worked our hardest not to have him neutered until he is a full 2 years old. He'll turn 2 this coming November. Do you think that will help the situation once that is done? We love both of these dogs. We also raised 3 sons-- so we know what the challenging teen years can be like.....but geez!

Thanks for listening!
Joan




King Kaia

 

[Baymule]

How frustrating that must be. I have Anatolians too. My male drive me nuts and one day it just clicked. Now he’s not only safe with ewes giving birth, he guards them and makes the other nosy ewes stay away.

There is hope! Just keep working with him in a small pen. Neutering him won’t stop the behavior, he has already learned it. It may slow him down a little, but it will continue. Put goats in a small pen with him. They run, he runs, grab leash and tackle him.

I’ve sat on my male, snarling, growling, grabbing him on the scruff of his neck with both hands and shaking him hard. I used their own correction methods. I observed my other two Anatolians take him down, it looked and sounded like a dog fight and like they were killing him. Lots of snarling, growling from them and outright screaming from him. Do I did what they did.

 

[Mini Horses]

Yes, you become a dog. But you are the pack leader! Keep at it...eventually, most learn. It's easier when started as a pup AND their exposure at that time. Your yr & a half of no livestock exposure & training will require a longer transition time. Be the lead dog.

 

[Baymule]

Buford T. Justice

I brought a puppy home yesterday. Drove to Forney, a Dallas suburb, 3 1/2 hours away, in the rain. AKC registered male Anatolian 3 months old. Breeders said he’s food aggressive. I explained to them that I trained Sheba and Sentry to sit, wait, and not eat until I said Take It. Im sure it...

www.backyardherds.com

This is Buford’s thread. Maybe you can find something in there that will help.

@Ridgetop got any ideas for this?

 

[Ridgetop]

Do I understand that you got the dogs first and then introduced the ND goats? And that you brought the goats in a few weeks ago? Were the goats used to being around guardian dogs? It sounds like the dogs are now almost 2 years old and have not been around any livestock since they were 3 months old on the breeder's property. They are used to chasing off coyotes.

If this is the case, then the dogs must be introduced to livestock as if they have never seen it before. They are no longer bonded to any type of livestock, and are used to being rewarded for chasing off intruders (coyotes and predators). The Nigerian Dwarf goats are small, and the dogs may see them as intruders on the property. If the goats are not used to guardian dogs and run from them this behavior can bring on a prey drive in the dogs as well.

How large is the pen where the goats live? Do they have free run of the property with the dogs? The dogs need to get used to the goats being on the property so pen the goats in a smaller area where the dogs can meet them through a fence and learn that they are supposed to be on the property.

Do we attempt to start their training over?

You say the female is already getting the idea so she may have a better genetic guardian response than the male. Keep on with what you are doing with her. The male may not have as good a livestock guardian response as the female. Every puppy in a litter is different with different natural abilities. Some puppies in a litter are exceptional with the livestock from puppyhood, while some need more training. Some are never as good with livestock, but make good farm and family guardians. In your case, the fact that these puppies were removed from all livestock for the past year and a half is a problem. Expecting them to be good livestock guardian dogs now isn't going to work. They need to be trained again.

You are training them properly now and this is the way to continue. Instead of standing on the leash, tie the dog so he can't break free. Then call him to you or stand next to him as you let the goats run, and praise him as he remains with you. This will take many months of training. If the female becomes completely trustworthy with the goats, she can remain in their enclosure or pasture. If the male remains iffy with the goats, he can be the outlying guardian outside the pasture but within your perimeter fencing. He will run off any predators before they get to the inner goat fencing.

However, there is lots of hope for the male. He is still young and many young Anatolians and other guardian breeds will occasionally chase until they are 2-3 years old. Work with him separate from the female since being together can cause them to get excited and not listen. Young males can be more excitable than the females as well. What is his temperament like compared to his sister?

Also, don't make the mistake of thinking the dogs are always "chasing" when they run after the goats. When you let the goats into a pasture, watch to see if the dogs run past the goats to the outlying area of the field. This is the dogs running to make sure no danger is out there before the goats get there. If you are moving the goats from one area to another, often Anatolians will surround them and try to put them back in the original location. This can look like "chasing". We routinely lock up our LGDs when moving the sheep from one pen to another. Less stress on us and on the ogs who dont like change. When you yell at the dogs to stop them, the dogs hear that as encouragement in whatever they are doing. Anatolians think for themselves. They reason things out - but not as we reason so you need to try to understand how they are thinking. Often they think we are stupid when we want them to do something they don't like, and they will act to fix whatever they see as wrong behavior on our parts. LOL

We have had 5 Pyrs and 5 Anatolians over the past 38 years. We started with Pyrs but when out chidren were grown we switched to Anatolians. We won't go back to any other LGD breed. We have had our work cut out for us wth a couple of them and behavior issues. We didn't understand some of the behaviors, did not train properly on others, but we persevered and our current 3 Anatolians (our first 2 are dead now) are close to perfect. Keep training and yours will be too.

Having raised 3 teenagers, you have the stamina! We have faith in you!

 

[Justjoan]

Thanks, everyone, for your valuable input. Our original plan was to get the goats shortly after we brought the dogs to the farm. But due to caregiving issues with my elderly parents, that wasn't able to take place. The dogs and goats have lived in the same barn (separated by a gate) for 3 months now. They spend ample time nose to nose through the gate.

King's temperament is much more unpredictable than his sister's. Sometimes he's calm and collected--then other times, you can tell he's just keyed up and isn't going to do anything asked of him. Kaia is much more consistently calm and controlled.

We'll keep at it!

Thanks again,
Joan

 

[fuzzi]

Thanks, everyone, for your valuable input. Our original plan was to get the goats shortly after we brought the dogs to the farm. But due to caregiving issues with my elderly parents, that wasn't able to take place. The dogs and goats have lived in the same barn (separated by a gate) for 3 months now. They spend ample time nose to nose through the gate.

King's temperament is much more unpredictable than his sister's. Sometimes he's calm and collected--then other times, you can tell he's just keyed up and isn't going to do anything asked of him. Kaia is much more consistently calm and controlled.

We'll keep at it!

Thanks again,
Joan

Do let us know how things progress. Keeping a journal here is helpful for you, to see your progress (or lack thereof), and to get input from others who've already "been there".

Eventually it can be a resource for others who will be as new to this training as you are now.