Advice please!!! Stripes is getting worse

[Our7Wonders]

This isn't an advocation for using it willy nilly becasue CMs post is good warning to heed. HOWEVER, if you are needing the antitoxin and want to keep smaller sterile bottles Hoegger's sells the antitoxin in 50ml bottles as well as the 250ml bottles. They aren't as cost effective as the 250ml bottles. I think it's close to $8.00 for the smaller bottles. I'm buying a couple small bottles to keep on hand rather than the big one.

 

[helmstead]

Given the number of vaccinated goats that succumb to entero...um...I will stand by any recommendation to USE C&D antitoxin at the beginning of digestive upset to PREVENT getting to full blown entero where you'll more than likely be behind the 8 ball by the time you get C&D in there. The vaccination is practically worthless as far as I'm concerned, because I cannot tell you how many times I've heard, "But, he/she was vaccinated, how could he/she GET entero?"

 

[cmjust0]

This isn't an advocation for using it willy nilly becasue CMs post is good warning to heed. HOWEVER, if you are needing the antitoxin and want to keep smaller sterile bottles Hoegger's sells the antitoxin in 50ml bottles as well as the 250ml bottles. They aren't as cost effective as the 250ml bottles. I think it's close to $8.00 for the smaller bottles. I'm buying a couple small bottles to keep on hand rather than the big one.

Now THAT is awesome.. I hadn't been to Hoegger's website in months and months, but I've seen two references now to some cool stuff they offer that you can't find anywhere else.. I can't remember what the other cool thing was, but it was cool nonetheless.. That much, I remember.

Off to Hoegger to look around.

(btw...I always thought it was pronounced "hoger" until I had to call to check the status of an order.. Apparently, it's pronounced "hager" with a long A.. I was surprised. Just thought I'd pass that along. )

 

[cmjust0]

Given the number of vaccinated goats that succumb to entero...um...I will stand by any recommendation to USE C&D antitoxin at the beginning of digestive upset

Given the number of people who mistake many other things for entero, I will stand by my recommendation to hold off on using it and rely on vaccination.

Also want to point out that lots and lots of people -- some of which are regulars on this very forum -- pshaw the notion of pitching unused vaccine despite the label instruction, and one of my questions has *always* been (and this can be verfied by searching the forum) whether or not the vaccine is as effective as it needs to be if it's "leftovers"..

Hmmm..

 

[getchasome]

How do you hold his bottle? Does he get down low and then crane his neck up (like they do when they are under mama nursing)? It was said on a thread here recently that when a baby is in the proper position for feeding it closes off the passage to the part of the tummy that you don't want milk to go to - and allows milk to go to the proper spot. Now the particular post that I'm referring to was far more scientific about it than that - but that my simpleton version - cause that's how my pea brain works.

All that to say, it would seem odd to me that he would have a hard time digesting the milk since so many here recommend whole milk when goats milk is unavailable and the babies seem to thrive. If it's hitting the wrong tummy, well that may make sense. Or if there's something else amiss that's causing the indigestion.

I'm sorry, I don't really have any advice, just thought it might be helpful to consider another angle. I've decided goats are far more work than my children have been, combined - and I have 7 kids!

I hold his bottle like if it was the mamas teet, so yes, he is really low with his head craned back (looks so uncomfortable lol) I really do appreciate everyone commenting and suggesting!!

 

[getchasome]

Are you warming his milk or feeding cold?

cold ... I pour it into the bottles, put them into my jacket pockets and walk out to their yard, about 3 minutes away.

 

[getchasome]

I'm with Helmstead...cocci. Dog vets usually have Albon on hand for cocci in dogs...you should be able to get ahold of some.

As far as the hair pulling - have you looked for lice?? Not unusual to have this time of year...

Good luck!

The IFA store here is ordering the DiMethox and said it will be here in the morning ... I also have an order from Jeffers coming in tomorrow

I did look for lice and have dusted them all with DE ... its so weird the hair thing he is doing ... he hasn't pulled any out, but is biting it off ... part of his hair is long (the areas he can't reach) but the part he is biting, is about 1/2 the length ... none of the others are biting their hair ... they were itching, the baby girl had lice and that was why I dusted their house, their yard and them as well as the duck and the chickens

 

[getchasome]

Oooookay... So, I've been seeing more and more references lately to treating with C&D antitoxin at the least little sign of the squirts *just in case* it's enterotoxemia.. Not sure how that ball got rolling, but I'm seeing that suggestion more and more and more, to the point that it's beginning to trouble me a bit..

Here's the thing -- if it's enterotoxemia, you probably won't have time to consider whether or not you should give C&D antitoxin, let alone wonder if what you're seeing is really anything to be all that concerned about.. With entero, you won't see the goat going from solid to pudding to solid or watch it go from a little bit roached up to playing, etc.. With entero, they go from perfectly fine to a 'dirty water' scour to severely dehydrated to dead, often in a matter of hours.

That's because enterotoxemia is an incredibly severe bacterial infection of the gut... It's dysentary.. "Food poisoning," basically... And not the simple "Oh man, shouldn't have made that run for the border" dietary upset that people colloquially refer to as 'food-poisoning'...I'm talking about the "Hey, did you hear Jimmy got a bad can of pork and beans and died of botulism??" kind of food poisoning.. **ENTERO IS SERIOUS BUSINESS**

SO...if you have a goat that's off and on with scours, or if their scours are pudding-y and gross but don't progress to *DIRTY OR YELLOW WATER* you're almost certainly NOT looking at enterotoxemia..

"But CM...what does it really hurt to give the antitoxin just in case?"

Well, first of all, giving antitoxin negates previous vaccination for the disease.. So, by giving it "just in case" to a goat that clearly doesn't have entero, you're actually opening the door for that goat to get a big honkin case of it.. The anti-toxin confers passive immunity for...um...a week, or 10 days, or up to 2 wks -- depends on what you read. So, how long do you wait to revaccinate? A couple weeks? What if that goat's passive immunity wore off in a week? Or maybe you only wait a week to vaccinate, but the C&D was still working and negates the vaccine.. And then there's the space between vaccination and actually developing full immunity.. Any way you look at it, you're opening a window for entero by using C&D antitoxin carelessly..

Second of all, C&D antitoxin is expensive -- about $40 if you buy a 250ml vial off the shelf -- and it's a biological product. If you read the label, it will tell you to "use entire contents when first opened." I've even seen labels that add "Burn all containers and unused contents." Basically, in the eyes of the manufacturer, puncturing the seal taints the bottle.

Now, I know there are those out there who disagree with me on that, but that label's there for a reason, and the reason is that it can no longer be considered sterile once you puncture the bottle.. Now, will most of us go out and buy another $40 bottle of C&D antitoxin because gave a kid a whopping 10ml of our 250ml vial?

Uh, no...

So now you've not only opened a window for entero to strike, but the only bottle of C&D antitoxin you have on hand isn't even sterile and should perhaps have been incinerated!

Just sayin'...use C&D antitoxin wisely. If you have a goat that's acting really, really way bad off and is spewing foul-smelling, yellow or dirty water from its hind end...use it. If it's a kid with an occasional muddy butt that's making puddin poops...really think about what you're doing.

That's all.

Thank you for that explanation!! I am very appreciative of all of the advice, knowledge and suggestions because I'm still learning

 

[ksalvagno]

I know some people feed cold milk but I really think warming it up to a temp like you would for a baby is better.

 

[getchasome]

To update - this morning when I went out he was eating hay. When he saw me he RAN to the gate talking the whole way ... I opened the gate and he stood up on his back legs and put his front hooves on my legs

I gave the other baby her bottle of milk and I gave Stripes some pedialyte, about 2.5 oz ... he drank it down then sniffed at the bottle of milk. He didn't try to take it, he actually turned and walked out the gate and started eating the grassy weeds ... when the other baby was done with her bottle, we went out the gate and they started playing on the pile of rocks ... they played and grazed for about an hour.

When we went back into their yard, we sat down with them (my son reads in the mornings while we are with the goats) and Stripes laid next to my legs, pushed himself right up against them, put his head on the pallet and went to sleep. He made a couple of soft moan/settling sounds and slept.

We made the flotation saturation mix last night and have been checking it through-out the day. I've been studying the pictures of cocci on Fias Co farms website and I'm going to do the fecal tonight. If I don't have luck, then I am going to drive out to Boulder City tomorrow and sit in the vets office until they help me. They treat horses and dogs and cows, how different can a goat fecal actually be???

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments!!!