AI or buy a bull?

[kfacres]

I have a heifer that I'm planning on trying AI on in a few months, so not against it by any means, but don't believe that AI is the only way to go. I also think that the costs incurred by having a bull don't have to be astronomical.

If I buy a bull calf for $10.00 (the going price around here right now for a Jersey), $75.00 for milk replacer, $50. for disbudding, vac. (Misc ), I grain about 1.5-2.lbs per day or $12.00 per month for grain and butcher at 18 months--2 years, there's no way I'm going to have a $4500. bull. It seems different to me if you're not breeding for genetics but just to keep your cow in milk and have your own beef (even if it's a hamburger bull).

If I get a bull calf in Sept., he should be ready to breed by July at the latest, bringing the cow in in April. Then keep him another few months to be sure she settled. They aren't apt to get truly nasty much before a year. I can either keep him until he gets 'the look', or butcher him young or sell him. Like RTG, my land doesn't owe me a thing after 30 years. If we didn't have grazing animals, we'd have to brush hog or have the fields go to woods in a few short years. I don't count fuel costs, as we'd spend the same on fuel for brushhogging. Guess you could count the baler twine as added expense.

I'm not sure how old you are saying-- but a bull calf WILL NOT be fertile much before a year old-- and it might depend on what kind of cow you want to put him under-- but he may not be 'actually big enough' to service her until atleast 15 months of age.

What are you planning on feeding grain for only $12 a month, what feed stuff.

Our jersey bulls are too mean to own by 15 months of age-- which is when they need kicked out with heifers.

If you follow this protocal- you A: don't care about making genetic advancement of your herd- B: aren't interested in making a profit from the- b/c you keep everything yourself, and C: I bet you can't get this scenario to work for very many people?

What is your plans to breed that cow next year-- if you butcher this calf before he sticks around for a 2nd year? Do you plan to buy a new bull calf each year? Right there- you double every costs you have...

 

[jhm47]

Cricket: What you're referring to is not a bull, it's a cow freshener. There is a big difference. If this is what works for you, go for it. Just be careful---Jerseys are extremely dangerous, and I'd hate to have you get hurt or worse.

 

[redtailgal]

Mornin'

Yup, this puter is DYING.......it got attacked by a 3 year old nephew last week. I ordered a new one, but its a custom build job, so it may take awhile. I hope this one holds up.

I did get the PDF to load, finally and looked over it this morning with my cup of coffee.

It was an interesting read and while it did validate your point of view kfacres, it also made me more secure in my own opinion.

Here is my opinion:

For those that run a seedstock farm, AI is definately the way to go. They will get much better selection and quality from just buying the semen instead of the whole bull, and have the added benefit of not having to house as many bulls as needed for a seedstock farm.

For those that have small farms, just a few cow, I guess it could go either way. I could see having them AI'd, but I could also see leasing a bull or working out a deal with a farmer to house a bull on the farms off season........many farmers out here will do just that.

But for the average farmer, like us, with 40-50 head of beef, just having live cover can be done cheaper (my farm proves that if you refer to our math discussion). We dont need elite semen to make a pot roast. As far as advancing the genetics, when we need replacement heifers, I could see maybe buying some semen to seed our best cows with, but with the way our bull situation works, it is doubtful. We do "breed up" for replacements when ever possible.

Then there is the hardcore rancher, like my friend in Oklahoma. She'll run a few thousand cattle on her ranch. Most are weanlings brought in to finish for sale, but they do run a herd of breeding cows, right now the breeding herd is at about 600. AI for 600 cows just would be to time intensive for that any cattle. Most of those cattle are bred for a commercial grade calf, but 200 or so of them are hereford. They keep 7-8 bulls and provide live cover for all their cattle.......again these cattle are grassfed, so cost on bull housing is minimal. bulls are born on the ranch, raised on grass and live on grass. I am pretty sure that several of those bulls and cattle have never even tasted grain.

In looking at the numbers, both mine and the ranch (was talking with my friend on this subject this morning).......we would both lose money by switching to just AI. And by looking at the numbers, my friend and I both agreed that when done correctly, housing a bull is cheaper than housing a cow. Bulls generally dont have as many medical problems as cows, thus costing less in drugs/vet expenses.

I've got 3-4 bull calves here that I am going to raise out for the herd. We'll keep 2 and sell the rest. I'll keep a running total on how much I spend on these bulls and if I remember, report back in a couple years. Right now........they haven't cost me a thing. They were sired by live cover on a swap. Our cows went to the other farm, and we brought home a few to cover wtih Shut up, and even trade. They were all born without assistance and have been grown on grass. No money invested in these calves as of yet. I cannot count the semen used to breed the cows as an expense, because Shut up has paid for himeslf with stud fees.

So, while herd advancement is a consdieration, we are raising beef not the supercow...........We sell what we can as replacements and the rest that we dont keep go to auction, and there are actually ALOT of farmers in this area that do things this way.

Now, if I were raising for seedstock........I'd probably do AI, but for what I am doing and what my friend is doing, its just not a good business move. A beef operation needs to keep overhead down as much as possible.

Thanks for sharing the PDF...........

 

[redtailgal]

Hey kfacres.......I appreciate all the information you've provided so far, we've got differing opinions, but it's been a nice chat. Besides, if we both agreed on everything, one of us wouldnt be necessary.

I hope you dont mind if I ask your thoughts on something else. Not to long ago, I was listening to a gentleman who runs a seedstock farm, and he was talking about how sires from other countries has greatly improved his seedstock. But in reading, I see that you are a firm believer in line breeding (hey, we agree on that, anyway, lol).

I just dont know if I can agree with the foreign seed being so detrimental to US herds, and wonder if it wouldnt be more cost effective to form a tight line breeding program to achieve the desired results for the seedstock...........but then again, I'm not breeding for genetics. What are your thoughts?

 

[kfacres]

Hey kfacres.......I appreciate all the information you've provided so far, we've got differing opinions, but it's been a nice chat. Besides, if we both agreed on everything, one of us wouldnt be necessary.

I hope you dont mind if I ask your thoughts on something else. Not to long ago, I was listening to a gentleman who runs a seedstock farm, and he was talking about how sires from other countries has greatly improved his seedstock. But in reading, I see that you are a firm believer in line breeding (hey, we agree on that, anyway, lol).

I just dont know if I can agree with the foreign seed being so detrimental to US herds, and wonder if it wouldnt be more cost effective to form a tight line breeding program to achieve the desired results for the seedstock...........but then again, I'm not breeding for genetics. What are your thoughts?

Short answer: It depends... and this is going to be a huge thing you're asking me to give input on.

Negitive connotation: Look at the Holstein breed-- 95% plus of those cows trace back in huge I.C. to just 2 bulls-- Elevation and another that's slipped my mind right now. The Holstein breed is in such a hurt for outcross genetics- it's unreal. The world population is in hurt. Due to AI and ET, the genetics have been bred so tight- they cannot find a Holstein out there worth using as an outcross; the only ones out there are in remote tribes in Africa somewhere-- and they are such poor animals, it wouldn't be wise to use them... So what does that leave the breed to do? Use Montebellarde, Norway Red, and Swedish Reds.. Those old strong hearted, cross breeding hater Holstein guys can now produced Red and White Holstein looking cattle-- so when they're neighbor drives down the road- he doesn't know they are cross breeding. This is why 90% of all Holstein steers grad Prime, and 95% of them grade Choice or better.. They are extremely uniform-- due to lack of genetic diversity..

Another negitive- is look at the Shorthorn breed. In the 70 and 80s- the push was for Irish cattle. Everyone and their brother went over to buy the Irish deals, and reaped like you wouldn't believe. These Irish deals eventually would be the culprit for bringing TH over here- b/c the Irish pedigrees were false, unbelieable, and unknown in almost every account. Without that deal, TH would not be in the cattle world. So, while helping the breed short term-- it's actually hurt it in the long run.

Positive connotation: I think that every producer, breed, or country has different goals. AU wants grassfed, high quality, good eating cattle.-- the US- for the most part. feeds all steers out on corn-- those genetics may, but most likely will not work together. Same goes for east coast, vs. west coast genetics. There is such variation out there, that whatever you need- you can find what you need to fix your problems.. of course, you can also get what people call as "breeding peices"... With that, I hate that word; b/c with each good peice, you get a bad one...

Do I think it's good or bad- I think it's irrelevent and both.

The thing about linebreeding-- it has such a negitive aspect in 80% of this nations livestock people, they want to avoid it at all costs. Read my post on the sheep page here about it, pretty well sums up my thoughts on it.

I've got to get out now.. but can type more later if I didn't answer your questions.

 

[Cricket]

If you follow this protocal- you A: don't care about making genetic advancement of your herd- B: aren't interested in making a profit from the- b/c you keep everything yourself, and C: I bet you can't get this scenario to work for very many people?

A. Nope. We eat their young. B. We have happy cows with plenty to eat, we have great healthy meat and our land isn't going to support us on cows. C. I'm not making plans for anyone else.

My point is that we all have different situations and you can't apply a formula for AI vs bull to it.

What is your plans to breed that cow next year-- if you butcher this calf before he sticks around for a 2nd year? Do you plan to buy a new bull calf each year? Right there- you double every costs you have...

I'll either get a new calf or I'll breed AI. Eat the first calf. Eat the 2nd calf. Eat the 3rd calf.

As I said, I'm not arguing against AI. I just remember 20 years ago trying to get our first Jersey AI'd. Both working full time, trying to catch her in heat, trying to get a hold of the AI guy, calling in sick to work waiting for him. Didn't take. Repeat 2 months later. Didn't take. Have her vet checked, everything okay. Then we bought a yearling Hereford bull and it was instant fix. In the meantime, an extra 6 months of buying 2 gallons of milk a day for 2 teenagers and a husband, not to mention the other good stuff. And I know now they have hormone shots, but you talk about the per cow price of them. You can't buy a one shot deal around here.

(Yep, I'm always careful around bulls. Need to work on my amorous heifer alarm, tho!--thanks J.!)
(So with the taste of cow poop--every time I hear someone mention about the ocean being salty, I think to myself, " the heck with ocean, what about cow poop? And I swear when the 'girls' are on corn silage I can occasionally smell popcorn whiff, but everyone I work with says I'm nuts on that one!)

 

[redtailgal]

Cricket.......Popcorn? Sure......ok. ????? Never had popcorn poop round here. Smells like onions at times though........


Kfacres:

I had already read your post on linebreeding sheep, and agree with you for the most part. To be honest, I havent really delved into linebreeding that deep, so I dont have a good excuse for not agreeing completely. I'm just a research it kind of gal.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the Holsteins. There is a local dairy farmer near me that I am buddies with. Have taken some calves to raise out for him every now and again when he is swamped (really its cuz I love having bottle babies). After years and years and years of dealing with the less than intelligent bulls with a sorry attitude, he switched to AI. Its worth it for him as its cut WAY down on his hospital bills, lol. I digress.

Anyway, he bought some semen from several different bulls to try and get a little genetic diversity to his herd, and ended up with 9 liver and white heifers, lol. He was mortified!

 

[kfacres]

If your goal is to create a terminal product-- which I'm guessing is almost 80% of your calf crop-- I don't really see a reason for you to linebreed. The other thing, if you have quite a few unknowns in the operation-- then you'd better not linebreed-- or be prepared to deal with a very high likelyhooded disaster.

Honestly, I see very little advantage of going outside the US to source genetic advancements. I think that if people looked hard and through enough-- they can find it right here at home.

Most often I see people who go outside, just to get their jollies off and feel important. I've seen AU bull after AU bull come here- be promoted hard-- and then flop. Yes, there have been some influenctial bulls in recent years who've done good-- but not very many.

Originally, when the livestock were imported-- I think they did some good for us-- they had to. From that point onward, the global people have done on and have begun taking advantage of us (or them).

The other way to look at it, if the non US people are really at the top of their class, and their genetics are worth using-- then I believe that most likely those pedigrees will be full of USA animals...

I sold a buck to Canada a couple years ago, was one of the very first people in our breed to do so after the border re-opened. I don't know that either party reaped benefits from that sale...

 

[WildRoseBeef]

Not to long ago, I was listening to a gentleman who runs a seedstock farm, and he was talking about how sires from other countries has greatly improved his seedstock. But in reading, I see that you are a firm believer in line breeding (hey, we agree on that, anyway, lol).

I just dont know if I can agree with the foreign seed being so detrimental to US herds, and wonder if it wouldnt be more cost effective to form a tight line breeding program to achieve the desired results for the seedstock...........but then again, I'm not breeding for genetics. What are your thoughts?

I don't believe in line-breeding if it's something that contains more risk than it's worth, especially if a) you don't know what you're doing, b) you've got too many unknown genetics in your herd, c) you've no idea how to select for best genetics and weed out the inferior ones, d) the type of herd you have cannot be improved by working with the current bull-power and/or cow-power you have, or e) you want to quickly improve your genetics in your herd and you can't do so without opening up your herd to other potential sources. You can't improve your herd if you have poor or average cows that are only able to give you a poor to average bull to work with, even if you know the genetic history of these animals, and it certainly isn't cost-effective to do line-breeding with that kind of herd. IMHO, your average cows can be improved by out-sourcing a VERY good bull, most importantly a bull that will work in your environment and management practices and won't fall apart a few months after arrival; keep the daughters, get rid of the pee-poor cows, and go from there. But like I said, that's my personal opinion, and that would definitely be how I work if I would be selecting for genetics, not for a terminal program.

In regards to foreign stock, they're only as good as how well they can fit into a producer's operation. If they can't fit in or work with a producer's management practices, what's the worth of bringing such foreign blood in the first place? I think "detrimental" is the wrong word to use here, I believe it's more about being "unworthy" or "ill-matched" than detrimental. KF made some really good points so I don't want to repeat what he already said (which I know I already did some above), but I completely agree with the part of that it really depends on you, your herd and your management criteria. Be really strict and picky about what you're looking for and it just might work for you. If you're not careful, well the rest's obvious.

Just my two cents.

 

[kfacres]

Not to long ago, I was listening to a gentleman who runs a seedstock farm, and he was talking about how sires from other countries has greatly improved his seedstock. But in reading, I see that you are a firm believer in line breeding (hey, we agree on that, anyway, lol).

I just dont know if I can agree with the foreign seed being so detrimental to US herds, and wonder if it wouldnt be more cost effective to form a tight line breeding program to achieve the desired results for the seedstock...........but then again, I'm not breeding for genetics. What are your thoughts?

I don't believe in line-breeding if it's something that contains more risk than it's worth, especially if a) you don't know what you're doing, b) you've got too many unknown genetics in your herd, c) you've no idea how to select for best genetics and weed out the inferior ones, d) the type of herd you have cannot be improved by working with the current bull-power and/or cow-power you have, or e) you want to quickly improve your genetics in your herd and you can't do so without opening up your herd to other potential sources. You can't improve your herd if you have poor or average cows that are only able to give you a poor to average bull to work with, even if you know the genetic history of these animals, and it certainly isn't cost-effective to do line-breeding with that kind of herd. IMHO, your average cows can be improved by out-sourcing a VERY good bull, most importantly a bull that will work in your environment and management practices and won't fall apart a few months after arrival; keep the daughters, get rid of the pee-poor cows, and go from there. But like I said, that's my personal opinion, and that would definitely be how I work if I would be selecting for genetics, not for a terminal program.

Just my two cents.

A good portion of the USA and Canada livestock herds-- fall into this..

If i was starting over-- I would take all the females I had- and invest in a really, really good bull and breed to him for 2 years. I would keep every daughter born during those two years, and cull off the bottom half of my old females each year. When that group of daughters gets old enough to breed- I would again, invest in a really, really good sire to take me one step further... and repeat.

After a few years, you will basically be left with a group of 1/2, and 3/4 sisters-- and their mothers-- who should be about the top 10% of the original group.

IMO- to have a set of females very closely related-- is far more important than linebreeding... As long as the genetics are the same- it shouldn't matter if you outcross... which is fine in my book-- for most operations... just not mine... To many unknowns in outcross genetics for ME.