Before you all jump down my throat

[Straw Hat Kikos]

The dogs here do the same thing. It's not their's and they know it. They check them out and they really don't like it when you just throw new animals in with them. The realize that it is something foreign in with their animals. It's quite amazing.

 

[Grazer]

I just wanted to say that I agree with Straw Hat Kikos.
Until one has owned a true LGD breed (and by that I mean breeds from this list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog#List_of_breeds), one won't understand the difference between breeds that were bred to guard livestock for centuries and breeds that were bred to do something entirely different, in some cases also for centuries.

The instincts, the power and the speed of a true LGD breed is really something one has to experience themselves by owning such a breed to understand just what exactly sets them apart from non-LGD breeds.
Which is why I always say that if you want a working dog for a specific task, then get the breed that was actually bred to do that job.
That way there will be a far better chance that you will get exactly what you were looking for in a dog.

P.S. just because someone refers to their dog as a wolf hybrid, doesn't necessarily means that's true. There are a lot of scammers out there who mix GSD's, husky's and other Spitz-type or Northern-type dogs together and then sell them as wolf hybrids.

P.P.S
I also agree with Roll farms, it's best to observe and when needed correct any breed of dog around livestock and poultry until that dog is fully mature.
And when that's not possible (like during the night when people are sleeping) to keep them separated from the animals, just to avoid any bad habits from forming. Like chasing the animals or even attacking them.
With dogs it can be quite challenging to fix a bad habit once it forms so better safe than sorry I always say.

 

[Roll farms]

I disagree. I have never seen LGD pups play with the livestock and NEVER bite ears. If I had a dog that nipped or bit my goats even if they are pups or playing, that dog would be corrected immediately.

That's my point, you've never seen it.
I have. Many times. After I got home from work or got to the barn for chores...to find a stressed out kid and a sleeping, worn out LGD pup, happy w/ his day's "work".

The behavior SHOULD be corrected immediately. You're right there. But if I'm at work or asleep or just not there when it happens, I can't correct it very well, can I?

You have had / raised 1 or 2 young dogs and not had any bad experiences..... but that isn't the be all and end all of what happens...

I'm talking newborn kids w/ a 4 mo. old pup. How many very young kids have you left ALONE with a 4-5 mo. old dog w/out the mama goat around? None? Then you don't KNOW what would happen....and you cannot correct them if you're not there 24-7...so it's SAFER to leave the dogs w/ older goats who won't tolerate any BS from the dogs until the dog is old enough to know better.

I should probably seperate the pup from the young goats then, until I CAN be there to supervise, shouldn't I?

I am telling you, from 20 yrs worth of observing these forums and reading horror story after horror story of hurt animals....And my own experience breeding / raising / watching....but what do I know?

You're the expert. I'll stop trying to offer knowledgeable, experienced advice on the subject. Better to have info based on your untested opinion.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

@Rolls

I am not talking about keeping a pup in with just kids. We both know that both puppies and kids aren't going to know what to do. You're putting a pup who is 'untrained' in what it is supposed to do in with baby goats who also don't know what to do. What I am talking about is in a general sense. You can go ahead and dissect this as much as you want but in the most common cases what I am saying is true.
If I have a pup in with just kids I'm also going to have a mature dog in there too. That mature dog is not going to allow that puppy to be biting and attacking baby goats. The older dog will train into the pup that it is not supposed to do that. It will teach that puppy what is ok an not ok. That's why people always recommend you have a pup with a mature dog. So you can prevent those. Now say you don't have a mature dog. Well 99% of the time if you have a baby goat and an LGD pup you also have a mom for that baby goat. Well that goat is not going to allow that pup to hurt or mess around with her kid. She will get her kid away or get the dog away, either by chasing it away or hitting it. So while it is not good to have a pup with just kids that doesn't happen that often. Most of the time there is an older dog or older goats there.

Now I'm not saying that you should always just throw a dog in with a bunch of mature goats. I know some of my goats are pretty darn mean to my dogs. Throwing a puppy in with them would be a bad idea. They very well may kill that pup. You must know your animals well and make that decision yourself. I am against the constant penning of LGD pups that everyone seems to be doing now. When you do that you cause the dog to become bonded with it's area and surroundings instead of the animals. So I am not completely anti-cage as it is needed sometimes but if you have older dogs you can keep the pup with the livestock 99% of the time.

Rolls, I am not fighting you or saying you are wrong. I am going to say what I believe to be true and right. I actually agree with you in your reasoning there but that is not very likely that you only have a young pup without an older dog to teach it and/or no older does. It's just not overly likely. So again I am not calling you out and saying you are wrong. I have agreed with nearly all you have said and the same in this case. You are calling me out on this example but I was not talking about JUST pup and baby goats. That was not what I was talking about. I was talking about the most common situations, which would be that you do have an older dog or a momma goat around. So what you are saying against what I was saying is based on a false assumption.

You're the expert. I'll stop trying to offer knowledgeable, experienced advice on the subject. Better to have info based on your untested opinion.

As for this. I do know you have MANY more years on me. I know you are more experienced than I. I am not disputing that in any way nor am I saying you are wrong. I have only said that I disagree with some of what you had said. I have that right to disagree just as you do to me. So leave that kind of talk out of it. You have done the same thing before. When we disagreed on another subject you started saying that you are more experienced and that I have none. You also said that you won't say anything more because I know more with my lack of experience and knowledge. I really don't know why you do that just because I disagree. I do not do that to you when you disagree with me.
I would like it if you would drop that and just argue your point just as I do mine.

 

[elevan]

We've chewed this bone quite a bit here folks and it's starting to fray. Take a breath and come back later when you've rested.


THE #1 consideration in any livestock guardian (be it dog or otherwise) is temperament. Just because the breed (or species) is generally considered right doesn't mean the individual will be.

Additionally, each herd / flock owner always needs to decide what is best for them. Do the research first and then make a choice knowing what could go wrong.

I don't have an LGD but if I did it would be a respected breed from a working line. I use a llama and thankfully he has the temperament for the job.

 

[RemudaOne]

Good post, thanks elevan. Only we, as individuals, can determine what is best for our individual needs in our individual environments and individual situations.