Bred Too Young?

Good advice from FJ. Didn't realize this had "just happened". Lutalyse..I've used on the mini horse in years past. It works. Think it was about 2 wks post breeding for them. Been a while. But a good option and no issues for the animal.
 
At this early a stage, all the lute does is cause the CL to shrink so that the progesterone will recede, which will cause them to just come in heat again.... the sloughing off of the lining of the uterus will be no different than a normal heat cycle.... they will not even know they were pregnant, and you will not have to feel guilty about "aborting them" because it is so miniscule that it is not like aborting a growing fetus. Basically you are making the uterus uninhabitable for the newly fertilized egg.
Let us know what the vet says and how you make out getting them squared away, and into their "dry lot" "safe lot" for the next 2 months.
 
farmerjan said:
At this early a stage, all the lute does is cause the CL to shrink so that the progesterone will recede, which will cause them to just come in heat again.... the sloughing off of the lining of the uterus will be no different than a normal heat cycle.... they will not even know they were pregnant, and you will not have to feel guilty about "aborting them" because it is so miniscule that it is not like aborting a growing fetus. Basically you are making the uterus uninhabitable for the newly fertilized egg.
Let us know what the vet says and how you make out getting them squared away, and into their "dry lot" "safe lot" for the next 2 months.
Click to expand...
I talked to the vet on the phone, and he mentioned that too. He's coming out on Wednesday, and I have a whole list of questions for him (it'll be our first visit). I'm hoping that he'll say I can wait to give the shots when the ram is leaving so I won't have to separate them, but if we need to do it now, I certainly will, and then have those three elsewhere. The trickiest part of it all will be getting the other eight back out to their paddock, and the three to a different place.
 
Glad the vet is coming out. But don't wait that long to do them. 60 days is too long. Sheep only carry for 5 months, that is over a third of the gestation. It will be much easier on them, more like a blip in the radar, instead of an actual "abortion" to their system; to do it within the first month or less. Again, do as your vet says; but I would do them at about 14+/- days after you saw them get bred....
Good to write down the list of questions for the vet because you will inevitably forget to ask something. He//, I still make a list for the vet and we have been doing this for over 40 years.....:old:hide.
 
Do you have any cow panels? These are infinitely useful and will make a good sorting chute. If you don't have any, it might be a good idea to start accumulating some. They are not cheap, have gone up from $20 to $26 here. If that is not an option right now, go load up on pallets and build a chute. For the "working" part, buy a hog panel and cut it in half. It is low enough that you may be able to step over it, I can and I'm 5'7" tall. You need a "stop" at both ends of the hog panel. The stop keeps the sheep from running the whole length of the chute and confines the ones you need to work on in a smaller space. To make the stop, leave a gap between the last pallet and the hog panel, wide enough to slide a pallet through. Be sure to T-post the ends of the hog panels and the last pallet. Run a few sheep in the hog panel, slide a pallet through the gap and they are confined. For the stop at the other end of the hog panels, use hay string and tie a pallet to the end.

For putting the young ewes in a pen, you can make a halter and drag them where you want them. Get ready for a workout. They will try to run away, they will fight and then just lay down. LOL If you have help, it would be nice. My first weaning and separating of sheep was wild. I had a pen ready for them, but it wasn't close to the sheep barn and lot. Went through all the fighting and laying down, refusing to move, so we picked them up and put them in my garden wagon. My husband pulled the wagon, I held their legs up so they couldn't roll over and jump out. LOL LOL

I hope I have helped with my description of a make shift run and chute for you. I used to drag cow panels around to make loading chutes, working chutes, etc. I love cow panels!

One of the best purchases I ever made was a used Premiere 1 set of working equipment.

Handling Equipment for Sheep and Goats - Premier1Supplies

In a well-designed handling system, the system of animal “flow” from entry to exit(s) is important.
www.premier1supplies.com www.premier1supplies.com

I got 2 Guillotine gates, a stop gate, a 2 way sorting gate and a hog panel, cut in half. We used--you guessed it!!! Cow panels to make the chutes!! LOL LOL

This link is our equipment purchase and it shows how other people set up their chutes and equipment. Maybe the pictures will help you set up something to work and sort your sheep.

SCORE! Sheep Handling Equipment

WHOO-HOO!!!! :weee:weee:weee:weee I'm just a little excited. I found a Craigs List ad for sheep handling equipment. Two guillotine gates, a stop gate and a 2-way sorting gate for $650 from Premier1. I immediately looked up the pieces, new they totaled $955. This couple had used hog panels to...
www.backyardherds.com www.backyardherds.com

As you read the posts, you will see me in the hog panel chute clipping matts off the sheep with house hold scissors. Major job. blisters and no fun at all. I have since gotten a set of hand shears for those girls that don't shed well and they are awesome.

Cow panels for the run, hog panels for the short chute are not the greatest, but they work. Sheep and lambs do get their legs through the holes and they can get hurt. Prompt attention to get their legs back in the chute or they will figure it out themselves. Maybe one of these days I will get solid sides, but for now this is working for me and is a huge improvement over chasing and doing the flying tackle. LOL LOL

I have since made a loading chute for the stock trailer, again with cow panels.

I hope this gives you an idea on building some sort of small holding pen, even a temporary type of working chute, anything to help make it easier on you. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
 
Baymule said:
Do you have any cow panels? These are infinitely useful and will make a good sorting chute. If you don't have any, it might be a good idea to start accumulating some. They are not cheap, have gone up from $20 to $26 here. If that is not an option right now, go load up on pallets and build a chute. For the "working" part, buy a hog panel and cut it in half. It is low enough that you may be able to step over it, I can and I'm 5'7" tall. You need a "stop" at both ends of the hog panel. The stop keeps the sheep from running the whole length of the chute and confines the ones you need to work on in a smaller space. To make the stop, leave a gap between the last pallet and the hog panel, wide enough to slide a pallet through. Be sure to T-post the ends of the hog panels and the last pallet. Run a few sheep in the hog panel, slide a pallet through the gap and they are confined. For the stop at the other end of the hog panels, use hay string and tie a pallet to the end.

For putting the young ewes in a pen, you can make a halter and drag them where you want them. Get ready for a workout. They will try to run away, they will fight and then just lay down. LOL If you have help, it would be nice. My first weaning and separating of sheep was wild. I had a pen ready for them, but it wasn't close to the sheep barn and lot. Went through all the fighting and laying down, refusing to move, so we picked them up and put them in my garden wagon. My husband pulled the wagon, I held their legs up so they couldn't roll over and jump out. LOL LOL

I hope I have helped with my description of a make shift run and chute for you. I used to drag cow panels around to make loading chutes, working chutes, etc. I love cow panels!

One of the best purchases I ever made was a used Premiere 1 set of working equipment.

Handling Equipment for Sheep and Goats - Premier1Supplies

In a well-designed handling system, the system of animal “flow” from entry to exit(s) is important.
www.premier1supplies.com www.premier1supplies.com

I got 2 Guillotine gates, a stop gate, a 2 way sorting gate and a hog panel, cut in half. We used--you guessed it!!! Cow panels to make the chutes!! LOL LOL

This link is our equipment purchase and it shows how other people set up their chutes and equipment. Maybe the pictures will help you set up something to work and sort your sheep.

SCORE! Sheep Handling Equipment

WHOO-HOO!!!! :weee:weee:weee:weee I'm just a little excited. I found a Craigs List ad for sheep handling equipment. Two guillotine gates, a stop gate and a 2-way sorting gate for $650 from Premier1. I immediately looked up the pieces, new they totaled $955. This couple had used hog panels to...
www.backyardherds.com www.backyardherds.com

As you read the posts, you will see me in the hog panel chute clipping matts off the sheep with house hold scissors. Major job. blisters and no fun at all. I have since gotten a set of hand shears for those girls that don't shed well and they are awesome.

Cow panels for the run, hog panels for the short chute are not the greatest, but they work. Sheep and lambs do get their legs through the holes and they can get hurt. Prompt attention to get their legs back in the chute or they will figure it out themselves. Maybe one of these days I will get solid sides, but for now this is working for me and is a huge improvement over chasing and doing the flying tackle. LOL LOL

I have since made a loading chute for the stock trailer, again with cow panels.

I hope this gives you an idea on building some sort of small holding pen, even a temporary type of working chute, anything to help make it easier on you. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Click to expand...
Aw...that's all too complicated. I'll just put them all in the stall in the barn (piece of cake getting them in--a bucket of corn or alfalfa pellets will have the whole flock thundering after me, stepping on my heels and crowding me from all directions). I have a half panel in the stall where I can do some separating, but a leg hook will let me snag any individual animal (most of them are very tame anyway). And then to get the majority back out to the paddock (probably about 200 yards at this point), I'll have one person outside with a bucket of grain, and a gate-keeper to only let the ones out which should be out. The goal will be to keep the three small ones in, and let the others out. Once they're separated that way, the grain bucket person will walk the main flock back out to the paddock, and the three little ones will be in. My worry is about getting them into a SEPARATE place. I have a couple of ideas about places (the duck yard has a tall wooden fence), or I could put a separate electric net fence someplace nearer, or put them in with the chickens who are in an electric net fence in the whole big huge vegetable garden--though that might be a bit weird. I have plenty of cattle panel (I think--we've been using it regularly for various things, like making portable sheep shelters, and filling in some egregious gaps in fences).

I thought that it had to be at least two weeks after they were impregnated for the lute to work (but I'll for sure ask the vet); I was only planning on having the ram in there for a little over a month--time for everyone to run through two cycles if they didn't settle the first time, so it sure wouldn't be 60 days. But, I'll definitely ask the vet.

Other things on my list:

>growth/stunting when bred young (how young/how small/nutritional needs?)
>what I need to worry about with parasites (timing of pasture rotations various times of year, doing faecal egg counts)
>fescue toxicity (times of year) and other toxic pasture plants (really a problem?)
>Hoof trimming needs (they all look pretty good to me--but is my impression correct?)
>a bump on one ewe's tail
 
If sheep have a 16-19 day cycle... I always figure 21 days for sheep, goats, cows to be on the safe side of average; you need to figure from the very last day of the cycle... thinking the ewes came in heat the day before the ram got there... so you are looking at at least 40 days for the ram... which definitely better than 60 days.... so maybe giving them the shots the day the ram goes out will be okay... but yeah, 2 weeks after the ram got them would be ideal for the lute shot.
Your list of questions is good... One thing about fescue.... if they have enough other grasses available it will not be much of a problem. If they have just lambed and get put on fescue mixed grass, they will be okay. The fescue is palatable early in growth... it gets to be a problem with later term ewes, and with the breeding herd. After frost, the fescue becomes much more palatable as the starches change to a sugar and we graze cattle good on fescue in the winter. Fescue toxicity can cause feet problems and actually cause them to founder from the heat destroying the hooves. Again, we don't see alot of it in the sheep but they get plenty to eat and have a choice.

The further down you graze, the more likely they will pick up worm eggs. Barber Pole will be the most common. The larvae will "climb" the stalks of grass and will be more in the bottom 2-4 inches of the growth. They can lay dormant for awhile, but are much more prevalent in "wetter" conditions..... If you have any other ruminants (cows or horses) to rotate behind the sheep, they will often graze the grass with the parasites, and most parasites are "mostly" species specific.... so barber pole worm larvae will not likely affect a horse or cow... so it helps to break the cycle because there will be fewer/no larvae when the sheep get back to graze... not perfect but it helps....

If you have a way to do fecal egg counts that is your BEST way to time rotations and to decide down the road the best animals to keep. @Mike CHS and Teresa have been breeding their Katahdins to be parasite resistant. Believe me... it is the most economical way to get your herd to be resistant.... we do it with our White Texas Dall sheep too. We have to weigh the worm resistance, with the bad feet, with the best horns.... we have 3 different strains.... and keep crossing them to try to get better parasite resistance in the strain that has the best horns... and then crossing in the other strain that has very good feet and hooves compared to the ones with the best horns that have the softest worst feet ever.
 
farmerjan said:
If sheep have a 16-19 day cycle... I always figure 21 days for sheep, goats, cows to be on the safe side of average; you need to figure from the very last day of the cycle... thinking the ewes came in heat the day before the ram got there... so you are looking at at least 40 days for the ram... which definitely better than 60 days.... so maybe giving them the shots the day the ram goes out will be okay... but yeah, 2 weeks after the ram got them would be ideal for the lute shot.
Your list of questions is good... One thing about fescue.... if they have enough other grasses available it will not be much of a problem. If they have just lambed and get put on fescue mixed grass, they will be okay. The fescue is palatable early in growth... it gets to be a problem with later term ewes, and with the breeding herd. After frost, the fescue becomes much more palatable as the starches change to a sugar and we graze cattle good on fescue in the winter. Fescue toxicity can cause feet problems and actually cause them to founder from the heat destroying the hooves. Again, we don't see alot of it in the sheep but they get plenty to eat and have a choice.

The further down you graze, the more likely they will pick up worm eggs. Barber Pole will be the most common. The larvae will "climb" the stalks of grass and will be more in the bottom 2-4 inches of the growth. They can lay dormant for awhile, but are much more prevalent in "wetter" conditions..... If you have any other ruminants (cows or horses) to rotate behind the sheep, they will often graze the grass with the parasites, and most parasites are "mostly" species specific.... so barber pole worm larvae will not likely affect a horse or cow... so it helps to break the cycle because there will be fewer/no larvae when the sheep get back to graze... not perfect but it helps....

If you have a way to do fecal egg counts that is your BEST way to time rotations and to decide down the road the best animals to keep. @Mike CHS and Teresa have been breeding their Katahdins to be parasite resistant. Believe me... it is the most economical way to get your herd to be resistant.... we do it with our White Texas Dall sheep too. We have to weigh the worm resistance, with the bad feet, with the best horns.... we have 3 different strains.... and keep crossing them to try to get better parasite resistance in the strain that has the best horns... and then crossing in the other strain that has very good feet and hooves compared to the ones with the best horns that have the softest worst feet ever.
Click to expand...
Well, they're eating mostly fescue now--I'd say about 75%, after not touching it most of the summer. They're actually loving it, which has surprised me. I wasn't going to have them on this particular pasture yet, but we had to have some pond work done and where they were supposed to be needed to be kept clear for the big machinery to get through. I'm not TOO worried about the parasite eggs because they grazed this particular pasture only very lightly several months ago the last time they were here (not much sheep poop) and it was in the 90s that whole month which I've read is not very conducive to barber pole eggs hatching. But they're clipping it pretty evenly down to four or five inches, so I don't know. But they are currently breeding, so I hope the fescue doesn't have too adverse an effect on them.....

We have somewhere between 6 and 8 acres of pasture, and so far (in the year we've had them), we've run them through most of it three or four times. Where I'm planning to keep them for several months of the winter, with hay, they haven't been on since June. It's the worst pasture, about half and half fescue and serecea lespedeza (which has already died back since we had a couple good freezes), and a number of forbs (also already died back), some Indian grass, a little Little Bluestem, and some major clumps of Eastern Gamma grass, but only the fescue is still green, and it's pretty puny. My plan was to keep them in the same paddock for a number of days (like 4 or 5) and feed them really nice hay all around, with native grass seeds spread beforehand. So they'll eat part of the hay and the rest will mulch the grass seeds, and get tromped and pooped and peed on. And then move them into a much better pasture when they get closer to lambing, which will have been untouched for 6 months by that time, so hopefully not too much in the way of worm larvae population.

I will be really glad to finally meet this vet. He runs a mobile clinic (his building was torn down more than a decade ago when they built a new highway through the area), and I've heard great things about him from other sheep people. Up until now, I have just been consulting with various sheep friends, and I haven't really had any problems.

And here's my flock, a couple days ago. You can kindof see how little the black lambs are.
ED970E50-7B4E-4256-83EF-D1536F70EB52.jpeg
 
If you keep them with chickens make sure they can’t reach any of the chicken feed. It will make them bloat and possibly die. Naturally sheep love chicken feed or any feed for that matter.
 
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