CL & Raw Milk?

[Roll farms]

I truly, truly don't want to argue these points. My post wasn't in regards to anyone who's selling / dealing with commercial / USDA situations, it was toward the original topic and giving a 1st person view of having dealt with CL and CAE. You are very knowledgeable and I applaud your commitment to your convictions and opinions.

However, humans rarely do what they are supposed to.

Most people who end up w/ CL animals either hide it and lie (if the animals are valuable - which helps spread the disease), or haul them to the local auction. A vast amount of those animals end up at a terminal sale. At least here in IN. And they get loaded on the slaughter truck headed to Chicago.

CL abscesses are cut around and out, and the animals are still slaughtered. I've seen it on goat butchering videos and read many anecdotal articles in various meat goat magazines. CL is 'walled off' bacteria, as long as the trimmer cuts around it, no 'ick' can get into the meat.

This is the reason most meat goat producers do not want a CL goat in their herd. We lose alot of money when we are paid by the pound of an animal and all that weight is wasted.

A CL abscess is typically about the size of a quarter, smaller than a golf-ball in size. Generally a goat may have 1, maaaybe 2, in a 6 mo to 1 yr period (if any, again, the healthier they are overall, the less likely you'll see any). So in reality you wouldn't lose "all that weight" when trimming around one large marble.

I have drank milk from CL positive animals, and even (unwittlingly) CAE positive animals (and yes, we pasteurize).

CAE is NOT transmittable to humans whereas CL is which again is why we do not want CL in a herd. There is a legal liability here.

I know which diseases are zoonotic and which aren't. Again, answer was geared toward homesteader, not commercial producer(s).

We've been CL free for 2 yrs ( the original, older CL+ does died off and the new stock was vaccinated) and currently have 2 CAE+ animals left (bought from "CAE-" herd, ha ha, good thing I tested them) who will leave (already have a pet home lined up) once I get kids I can raise CAE prevention. One doe has no CAE symptoms at all, the other freshened w/ a hard udder but is otherwise fine.

Any goat that has been CL vaccinated is considered adulterated meat and is NOT allowed to be sold for slaughter. Another reason not to have CL in your herd if you doing this to make money.

I'll give you that one simply b/c I don't have enough oomph to look it up and argue the point.
That may be the LEGAL standpoint. But I'm also telling you, vaccinated animals - sheep and goats -end up in the food supply - right, wrong or indifferent, it happens. Not real sure why they'd sell a vaccine FOR meat animals if you're not supposed to use it but whatev.

I've sold 350 or so kids in that time, ALL caught at birth and CAE / CL prevention raised, and not ONE has come back CAE or CL positive to my knowledge. ... We're honest w/ buyers and responsible / compassionate w/ the animals.

I am glad you are honest with informing buyers of CL in your herd. I would suggest that you also have them sign a Notice of Disclosure for your own protection. Every seller is legally liable for what they sale especially when it comes to food. As an example, let's say you sell a goat to someone who intends to eat that animal (you don't know that is the intention). That goat has a zoonotic disease (transferable to humans). Two people in his home become sick, or just say he becomes sick. They determine through his doctors that he contracted a zoonotic disease which by process of elimination came back to that goat he purchased from you. You are legally liable for the damage done for selling him an infected goat and all his medical bills and treatment and probably P&S. You can say all you want well I told him we had ____in our herd, or I didn't know he was going to eat it or drink it's milk. You are still legally liable - where's the proof that he was notified or knew about it? Statute of limitation on this is 2 years unless god forbid he dies - then legally you could be not only sued but prosecuted.

All I have here is "Wow." Not even gettin' in to that one. Do I believe it's possible? Yes. So is cloning a dinosaur....but it's not likely.

I am not trying to scare anyone here about selling their animals or dairy does, but reality is what it is, and we as a goat population have to become more aware of the legalities of what we are doing and be more cautious about how we sell. With commercial production there is less liability because it's on a large scale and because there are regulations that are followed to protect them. But with small round about sales which most goat owners do, there's a lot more liability because you are not following any set standard or regulation. You are in a loop hole. A simple Notice of Disclosure will eliminate most of the concern though. You have a written document that tells the purchaser what has been found on you land and in your goats, what has been tested for, what vaccination and testing procedures you follow. They no longer can come back to you and say I was unaware of the risks.

You also mentioned you unknowingly purchased a goat who was infected. That person is legal liable for reimbursement to you for that goat, and for any consequences related to it without a disclosure. I fortunately have never had that happen, but then I am now a closed herd. But if it did happen, I would have immediately taken the goat back to the owner and requested a refund or inform them I was planning on taking legal action.

I called her. Long story short, she said, "Tough luck." I coulda sued her, I suppose butttt... I'm more of the "If she can live with it, I can live without her." mindset. Getting all worked up and in debt over a jerk isn't in my nature (anymore). I've mellowed w/ age, I guess.

I agree we live in a litigious world....but I could also be sued over my LGD's barking too much, someone tripping over a rock in my driveway, someone buying a baby chick that dies on Easter, etc. And if someone did sue me, well....they're not gettin' much anyway.

The point is, the OP has now seen the homestead and commercial side of the argument, and this thing has probably run it's course....

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

I agree Rolls. I'm done here.

 

[babsbag]

Ditto

 

[Valley Ranch]

we had a doe we immunized for cl with the cl goat vaccine. of course she then tested positive for cl. We then became concerned about drinking the milk so we took a sample and had it tested. Cost an aweful lot of money but the test proved to us that cl does not transmit through milk.
Now that doesn't address the issue of if an animal has an active infection with a abcess in the udder.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

And that should be correct. What CL is, is bacteria in the lymph system and after a while, and it depends on the goat, the bacteria builds up at the site of a lymph node and after some time the body must expel that bacteria and it does that in the form of and abscess which will naturally, as all abscesses do, will open up. Caseous Lymphadenitis basically means "cheesy lymph nodes". That's what it means. All CL is is some bacteria that is in the lymph system that on day may or may not build up to a high enough amount that an abscess will appear. It's nothing more than that. It is not transmitted in any way other than direct contact with the puss and it must enter the body of another goat for that goat to be infected. Same for humans, must enter the body. I for one do not take a whole lot of stock in the fact that it can or does hurt us as it's been around forever, it's still around and people are still around it! If it were a big issue we would know more about it. CL is not a big deal. It does not do real harm the goat, it's easily maintained and managed, in most cases, and I honestly don't think it's an issue to humans at all. People eat goat that has or had CL all the time and they are not having issues from it as far as I can tell. I have yet to see any hard proof that shows me CL in goats is doing or can do real harm to us. And I think we all know it really doesn't do much to the goat other than having to lance it and clean it. Sure there are chronic cases of it but there are for anything and if it is bad then of course the goat needs to go. But if it's not effecting us or the goats in a big or even a medium way, why get worked up over it? I don't get it.

Also, it should not mess with the milk in anyway unless the CL puss is entering the milk because that's the ONLY way it is transmitted! Neither you nor goats can get it when there is no lump or abscess thus no puss. Many goats get just one abscess and their done. Why get rid a perfectly good goat for such a small issue that is so easily cared for and such a small issue?

Thank you for listening ladies and gentlemen, I am now done for tonight.