SageHill
Herd Master
Learning every day!
Farmerjan's journal - Weather
- Thread starter farmerjan
- Start date
SageHill
Herd Master
Question -
On the easy calving bulls - they throw smaller calves - do those calves grow out smaller or do the catch up to the bigger calves as they grow out?
On the easy calving bulls - they throw smaller calves - do those calves grow out smaller or do the catch up to the bigger calves as they grow out?
- Thread starter
- #9,453
farmerjan
Herd Master
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2016
- Messages
- 12,733
- Reaction score
- 52,545
- Points
- 768
- Location
- Shenandoah Valley Virginia
AHHHH... someone who actually thinks about these things...
One of the things that is figured into the genetics and all these studies, to come up with the
"data" on these animals... is to compare things like BW - birth weight;... to WW - weaning weight; to YW - yearling weight... The computers come up with all this stuff... but it is based on ACTUAL comparisons...inputs by farmers/ranchers; many places that have registered cattle, have to do things like weigh a day old calf (there are sling type scales) then weigh those calves at weaning time... which is considered 205 days... so a computer formula does weaning weights = actual and adjusted for 205 days... that is about 7 months m/l.... then to actual yearling weight... This is to have a way to study apples to apples so need to have a "baseline" to do comparisons. They take into account a million things... and can even predict what the daughters of these bulls will produce... it goes so far as to likelihood of getting mastitis... susceptibility to other things... it has gotten very very involved...
DO I BELIEVE all of this... N O P E..... do I think it can be a good indication... and show connections in family groups, and related things YES.....
When we look at a bull... and the pedigree... there are a million things that are shown... TOO MUCH "DATA" that to me is more questionable... BUT some things are fairly accurate and being an "easy calving bull" is something that can be predicted with a fairly good accuracy. REMEMBER... these young bulls are "VIRGIN BULLS"... one way to guarantee NO TRANSMISSIBLE sexual diseases... which can destroy your whole breeding season... and they are tested for certain things even though they are supposed to be virgin bulls...
SO they look alot at their pedigrees, and what the parents, brothers and sisters etc and so on... have thrown...
When we want an easy calving bull, we look for bulls that are low birth weight rated... but PLUS in weaning weight and Yearling weight.. meaning that the calves should come easy... but that they should grow and catch up with their contemporaries...
The WV bull we just sold was an easy calving bull... numbers looked okay... and he was very fertile and calves popped out like popcorn... small and vigorous.... but they did not grow as well as we wanted... and that is a problem in the daughters especially if you want to retain any for replacements.
Sadly, many have been breeding to easy calving bulls, and overall, both DS and I feel that the calves are getting smaller and then there are more problems down the road. There is a trend for many of the animals to not be able to handle a good sized calf... We like a more balanced bull... and the next one we are looking for will be a "plus weight" bull... putting bigger calves on the ground. That way they have a little advantage to growing faster/better... There are NO guarantees... and we want our calves to be decent sized, and grow good. That also depends greatly on the cow, her milking ability, etc... and these things are all rated in the data on the bulls also.
You don't want monster calves that will cause problems for the cow... tear her up inside, can't turn around to be in the proper presentation for calving... big shoulders or hips so they get stuck in the pelvic area of the cow trying to calve. There are some vets that do "pelvic measurements"... on prospective heifers.. and sometimes the ones that look "big enough or grown enough" actually do not have great pelvic measurements. We do not do pelvic measurements... most registered breeders do them... and they are beneficial for information on cattle families also. It is something I don't disagree with, but have not pursued. I also like to calve my heifers a little bigger/OLDER than many farmers do... and find that a little more "mature growth" usually prevents alot of the calving problems because they are just grown better if they are a little older. Just MY OPINION....
Mini Horses
Herd Master
Last part is true for all mammals. A more matured body handles pregnancy better.
Baymule
Herd Master
Sheep have NSIP the National Sheep Improvement Program. Everything gets recorded, from birth weights, # of lambs born and raised, weaning weights, parasite counts, and all kinds of information. I do not participate but might consider it someday. It is a big deal in the Katahdin world and Katahdins have the most sheep in the program than any other breed.
SageHill
Herd Master
Always thinking, always learning. Thinking more..........
SO --- first time cows you want an easy birth - so breed to an easy calving bull. That generation goes to freezer camp (of course unless one is really inclined to keep one or a few based on herd size) to help prevent the subsequent generation possibility of smaller and possible resulting difficult birthing associated with the unintended "downsize". Future breedings of that cow are to balanced or plus weight bulls.
Had no idea that there were programs that would predict what/when/how/etc. But that makes sense. All that said, breeding is a bit of a crap shoot- well a crap shoot that one hedges the bet to put the odds in one's favor. There is a lot to be said for the powers of personal observation as IMO there are nebulous things we see and don't even know we see that goes into picking all sorts of things - including breeding pairs.
SO --- first time cows you want an easy birth - so breed to an easy calving bull. That generation goes to freezer camp (of course unless one is really inclined to keep one or a few based on herd size) to help prevent the subsequent generation possibility of smaller and possible resulting difficult birthing associated with the unintended "downsize". Future breedings of that cow are to balanced or plus weight bulls.
Had no idea that there were programs that would predict what/when/how/etc. But that makes sense. All that said, breeding is a bit of a crap shoot- well a crap shoot that one hedges the bet to put the odds in one's favor. There is a lot to be said for the powers of personal observation as IMO there are nebulous things we see and don't even know we see that goes into picking all sorts of things - including breeding pairs.
- Thread starter
- #9,457
farmerjan
Herd Master
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2016
- Messages
- 12,733
- Reaction score
- 52,545
- Points
- 768
- Location
- Shenandoah Valley Virginia
I just wrote a whole thing and accidentally erased it.... @#$@^%*&!!!...
Basically @SageHill that is pretty much correct... but not all easy calving bulls contribute to smaller calves, then to keep the smaller heifers, to breed to another easy calving bull, so to perpetuated the smaller animals in each generation... but that is the gist of the idea...
We try to buy "easy calving" or what are called "heifer bulls".... that also have "plus values" for weaning weight and especially yearling weight growth... so that the calves do "catch up" from a bit smaller size at birth, to matching their contemporaries at 205 and 365 day weights.
The big bull we just sold... WV 170... had the very best disposition and DS was still talking about how he hated to do it to him this afternoon... BUT his calves were 50-60 lbs at birth... and his heifer calves were 500-550 at 12-14 months when they needed to be 600+.... just smaller framed without the growth we need and want... We have several of his daughters, from cows mostly when we used him at a pasture with just cows... they are moderately framed young cows... okay.... but not "stand outs"... I do hope they have his disposition though. He also weighed 2050 lbs... so really too big to use on a 800+ lb heifer for her first breedings... the heifers just can not take that kind of weight. Although he was a fairly gentle breeder... not chasing down the cows and rammy with them... some bulls are rough.... and can hurt a cow... her legs or back... but he just had to go.
In the group of 9 that we just took back to pasture, that will be getting bred... 2 are 24QH daughters, out of first calf heifers... so an example of an easy calving bull (24QH) that also put the growth potential into the daughters, and the first calf heifers (momma's of these heifers) that had them, also milked good and the calves grew good.
It is a balancing act... and you study pedigrees and such to make decisions. There are something like 5-10,000 BULLS offered for sale every year... LITERALLY... across the country... some ranches/farms that market several hundred a year... per ranch..... but when you figure the number needed to cover the ground in some of the bigger ranches out west... it is not hard to understand the number raised. Most "bull sales" around here will have 25-75 bulls offered... and there are hundreds of sales .... and then there are all the different breeds... no to mention farmers that have 10-40 cows, some registered or just purebred... that raise up a bull or 2 to sell privately. Understand that there are many places that keep a bull for 2-5 years... and then get a different one... because they retain heifers and do not want the bull breeding back his daughters... or they feel the bull is getting too big... or sometimes the bull is getting too aggressive... and for people like us, we have 4-5 summer pastures that we put a bull into each one with 6-10-30 cows at each.... all according to the grass situation... so you have to have the number of bulls to put one in each place or you will be switching bulls around and dragging out the calving season for 3-4-5 months... We want our calves all in a 90 day period if possible... doesn't happen but we strive to get them calved out as close together as possible, to have a more uniform crop of calves to get weaned off and then marketed in groups, whenever possible.
We have had as many as 11 bulls in the past... in the last few years, we had 10, then sold a couple more... then we sold our old bull a few weeks ago, and then this one... we are presently down to 6 . One other one was bought in 2016... born in late 2014... so already 11.... and we will be selling him after next year most likely... He is another nice, fairly quiet easy going bull... but he is way past what most people think is a good age to sell. So we are in the market for 1 and maybe 2 new younger bulls. We have 5 summer pastures where we put cows in the spring to get bred, so need a minimum of 5 bulls... and what if one gets injured???? You have to have an "extra one" at the minimum to not lose potential breeding time... so that is 6 minimum right there. That is alot of money to "tie up"... we have an average 4-5,000 in EACH BULL.... so figure we have at least 25,000 worth of bulls... the one we just sold brought over 3,000 for cull price... so he brought pretty much what we had paid for him... so not a "loss".... and he gave us several years of calves... but he weighed about 1100 when we got him and ate for the last 5-6 years or so... and weighed 2050 when he was sold.
We have also rented out a bull or 2... had a guy one year with like 12 cows... bull got hurt, and he was needing one... by then all the bull sales were over around here... none that were a "good kind of bull", to be found... and we leased him a bull for 60 days to make sure his cows got bred. Some of the small 10-20 cow herds cannot justify a $3-4,000 bull for 60 days of breeding... and the problems that goes along with having to keep them separated some of the time for calving and such... or going across fences to someone else's cows...so would rather rent one...
So that is a long winded reply !!!!
Basically @SageHill that is pretty much correct... but not all easy calving bulls contribute to smaller calves, then to keep the smaller heifers, to breed to another easy calving bull, so to perpetuated the smaller animals in each generation... but that is the gist of the idea...
We try to buy "easy calving" or what are called "heifer bulls".... that also have "plus values" for weaning weight and especially yearling weight growth... so that the calves do "catch up" from a bit smaller size at birth, to matching their contemporaries at 205 and 365 day weights.
The big bull we just sold... WV 170... had the very best disposition and DS was still talking about how he hated to do it to him this afternoon... BUT his calves were 50-60 lbs at birth... and his heifer calves were 500-550 at 12-14 months when they needed to be 600+.... just smaller framed without the growth we need and want... We have several of his daughters, from cows mostly when we used him at a pasture with just cows... they are moderately framed young cows... okay.... but not "stand outs"... I do hope they have his disposition though. He also weighed 2050 lbs... so really too big to use on a 800+ lb heifer for her first breedings... the heifers just can not take that kind of weight. Although he was a fairly gentle breeder... not chasing down the cows and rammy with them... some bulls are rough.... and can hurt a cow... her legs or back... but he just had to go.
In the group of 9 that we just took back to pasture, that will be getting bred... 2 are 24QH daughters, out of first calf heifers... so an example of an easy calving bull (24QH) that also put the growth potential into the daughters, and the first calf heifers (momma's of these heifers) that had them, also milked good and the calves grew good.
It is a balancing act... and you study pedigrees and such to make decisions. There are something like 5-10,000 BULLS offered for sale every year... LITERALLY... across the country... some ranches/farms that market several hundred a year... per ranch..... but when you figure the number needed to cover the ground in some of the bigger ranches out west... it is not hard to understand the number raised. Most "bull sales" around here will have 25-75 bulls offered... and there are hundreds of sales .... and then there are all the different breeds... no to mention farmers that have 10-40 cows, some registered or just purebred... that raise up a bull or 2 to sell privately. Understand that there are many places that keep a bull for 2-5 years... and then get a different one... because they retain heifers and do not want the bull breeding back his daughters... or they feel the bull is getting too big... or sometimes the bull is getting too aggressive... and for people like us, we have 4-5 summer pastures that we put a bull into each one with 6-10-30 cows at each.... all according to the grass situation... so you have to have the number of bulls to put one in each place or you will be switching bulls around and dragging out the calving season for 3-4-5 months... We want our calves all in a 90 day period if possible... doesn't happen but we strive to get them calved out as close together as possible, to have a more uniform crop of calves to get weaned off and then marketed in groups, whenever possible.
We have had as many as 11 bulls in the past... in the last few years, we had 10, then sold a couple more... then we sold our old bull a few weeks ago, and then this one... we are presently down to 6 . One other one was bought in 2016... born in late 2014... so already 11.... and we will be selling him after next year most likely... He is another nice, fairly quiet easy going bull... but he is way past what most people think is a good age to sell. So we are in the market for 1 and maybe 2 new younger bulls. We have 5 summer pastures where we put cows in the spring to get bred, so need a minimum of 5 bulls... and what if one gets injured???? You have to have an "extra one" at the minimum to not lose potential breeding time... so that is 6 minimum right there. That is alot of money to "tie up"... we have an average 4-5,000 in EACH BULL.... so figure we have at least 25,000 worth of bulls... the one we just sold brought over 3,000 for cull price... so he brought pretty much what we had paid for him... so not a "loss".... and he gave us several years of calves... but he weighed about 1100 when we got him and ate for the last 5-6 years or so... and weighed 2050 when he was sold.
We have also rented out a bull or 2... had a guy one year with like 12 cows... bull got hurt, and he was needing one... by then all the bull sales were over around here... none that were a "good kind of bull", to be found... and we leased him a bull for 60 days to make sure his cows got bred. Some of the small 10-20 cow herds cannot justify a $3-4,000 bull for 60 days of breeding... and the problems that goes along with having to keep them separated some of the time for calving and such... or going across fences to someone else's cows...so would rather rent one...
So that is a long winded reply !!!!
- Thread starter
- #9,458
farmerjan
Herd Master
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2016
- Messages
- 12,733
- Reaction score
- 52,545
- Points
- 768
- Location
- Shenandoah Valley Virginia
Dr appt today for DS... his headaches have been worse this last week... but we did talk some on the way down and back... Went to the stockyard again on the way back... prices were off even more today... and the futures market was down the "new extended limit" of $13.25.... so it has thrown prices even further off... Not looking good. Glad we shipped the last of what we had to sell now... and glad those mediocre heifers are gone...
Saw a couple he said might have worked and there were a few we might have bought but he didn't and that was fine...
We did come to some decisions about moving animals for the winter... If the weather is not wet and rainy, we might get in the cows that have calved at the farm, tomorrow, with their calves...we'll see..... work the calves through the chute and let them out in the back field there at the farm... there is some grass back there... and he can feed some hay up in the back and then open up the next field back there for them... where we winter them usually. THEN, the next ones to calve will go across the road from me at "grant's" pasture for the winter...
And we were trying to figure out where to keep the too young heifers away from a bull, and we will have 5 more cows to keep away from the bulls to be sold in the spring whenever we wean off their calves... 2 are OLD.... the one that prolapsed, one has little/no milk... one he doesn't like the way she walks and is getting some age so will get to raise this calf...then get sold also....
These 5 are too many for the little lot there at the barn...so we decided to move the heifers that have calved out of snyder's (nurse cow pasture) to go out with cows to get bred... should be good to get bred to a "cow bull".... and move the ones that cannot get bred back, and a few other heifers we kept, all up to snyder's with the 12 wf her/hol heifers.... it seems like a very good solution...
Called the vet and have a preg check set up for NEXT Tues... for the 18 heifers, at pasture; and I have got to get the 2 holstein heifers preg checked... they will get moved back to snyders, where they can get some grain and I can get them in more easily.... and then they can get sold in the spring at a dairy sale as springing heifers... plus they will be carrying an angus calf so will have value in the "black calf" they will produce. Since they are holsteins, and have the potential to make a decent amount of milk, I am not going to keep them for nurse cows... would rather have a jersey or cross... although the market might fall off some more, baby calves are still quite high and I don't want to have to try to put 2-3 more on each cow... Neither is a pet so not going to feel any "guilt" over that even though I raised them on bottles... they were the tiny premie twins... 2 years ago this coming dec.... so they will be 26-28 months when they calve...
All we have to do is decide which bull is going where... 3 bulls to use this winter... #9QH will go to breed the 9 heifers since there are 2 that are #24QH daughters... so need to decide which bulls will go with the other 2 groups of cows... wouldn't use a new young bought bull on 25 or more cows, so anything we buy will get a couple more months to mature and get used in next may/june... and we might not buy one this fall.. look around until a spring sale... we'll see.
Okay, past time again to go to bed...
Saw a couple he said might have worked and there were a few we might have bought but he didn't and that was fine...
We did come to some decisions about moving animals for the winter... If the weather is not wet and rainy, we might get in the cows that have calved at the farm, tomorrow, with their calves...we'll see..... work the calves through the chute and let them out in the back field there at the farm... there is some grass back there... and he can feed some hay up in the back and then open up the next field back there for them... where we winter them usually. THEN, the next ones to calve will go across the road from me at "grant's" pasture for the winter...
And we were trying to figure out where to keep the too young heifers away from a bull, and we will have 5 more cows to keep away from the bulls to be sold in the spring whenever we wean off their calves... 2 are OLD.... the one that prolapsed, one has little/no milk... one he doesn't like the way she walks and is getting some age so will get to raise this calf...then get sold also....
These 5 are too many for the little lot there at the barn...so we decided to move the heifers that have calved out of snyder's (nurse cow pasture) to go out with cows to get bred... should be good to get bred to a "cow bull".... and move the ones that cannot get bred back, and a few other heifers we kept, all up to snyder's with the 12 wf her/hol heifers.... it seems like a very good solution...
Called the vet and have a preg check set up for NEXT Tues... for the 18 heifers, at pasture; and I have got to get the 2 holstein heifers preg checked... they will get moved back to snyders, where they can get some grain and I can get them in more easily.... and then they can get sold in the spring at a dairy sale as springing heifers... plus they will be carrying an angus calf so will have value in the "black calf" they will produce. Since they are holsteins, and have the potential to make a decent amount of milk, I am not going to keep them for nurse cows... would rather have a jersey or cross... although the market might fall off some more, baby calves are still quite high and I don't want to have to try to put 2-3 more on each cow... Neither is a pet so not going to feel any "guilt" over that even though I raised them on bottles... they were the tiny premie twins... 2 years ago this coming dec.... so they will be 26-28 months when they calve...
All we have to do is decide which bull is going where... 3 bulls to use this winter... #9QH will go to breed the 9 heifers since there are 2 that are #24QH daughters... so need to decide which bulls will go with the other 2 groups of cows... wouldn't use a new young bought bull on 25 or more cows, so anything we buy will get a couple more months to mature and get used in next may/june... and we might not buy one this fall.. look around until a spring sale... we'll see.
Okay, past time again to go to bed...
Baymule
Herd Master
Down here, tiger stripe heifers and cows bring premium prices. That's a cross of a Brahma and Hereford. They are usually red with black stripes like a brindle color and white faced from the Hereford. Good mommas, lots of milk, protective of their calves and have longevity, up to 20 years. Bred to an Angus bull, the calves mostly are black, so they pass the "color" test and we all know black hair tastes the best. LOL
