Beekissed

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Teresa tried to use one on Mel one time and she found really quick that you aren't going to hang on to 160 pound dog when they don't want to be held. :)
Exactly! :D =D
Blue would totally freak OUT. He acts like I'm cutting his leg off when I try to trim his nails.....never had a dog so scared of it and he's never been hurt with clipping, he just has a bum hip that he guards. I need to work with him on that.
 

Baymule

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I don't trim my dogs nails, I guess they wear them down on the rock driveway. Their nails always look good, so I don't worry about it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :gig
 

The Old Ram-Australia

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G'day folks,thought I would add to the conversation seeing I have had, bred and trained my herding dogs for about 40 years.I believe that if the pup comes from a working background ( and that's important) I job of the farmer is to harness the natural ability of the pup .Generally speaking Cattle dogs have too much "bite" to be good sheep dogs...Give your pup time to grow and mature both psychically and mentally ,many a young pup has been "ruined" because it got a "really bad knock" when too young.I like to start serious work when the pup is about 18 months old prior to that I like to keep them on a long lead and observe an old dog doing the job..Start out with a few quiet old ewes (but not with lambs at foot) and get them up against a fence,with the pup on a long lead position it between you and the fence behind the sheep .Position yourself at the "hip" of the middle of the group so they have a clear way forward ,once they begin to move fall back to the "tail" and let them "SLOWLY" make their way along the fence.In the early stages just allow about 5 min and as they become used to it extend the time and distance...I favor the Australian Working Kelpie or a Border /Kelpie X for sheep work.Please do not confuse the Australian Show Kelpie with the working variety as the show type has not got a single working bone in its body....Hope this is of assistance ...T.O.R.
 

Beekissed

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G'day folks,thought I would add to the conversation seeing I have had, bred and trained my herding dogs for about 40 years.I believe that if the pup comes from a working background ( and that's important) I job of the farmer is to harness the natural ability of the pup .Generally speaking Cattle dogs have too much "bite" to be good sheep dogs...Give your pup time to grow and mature both psychically and mentally ,many a young pup has been "ruined" because it got a "really bad knock" when too young.I like to start serious work when the pup is about 18 months old prior to that I like to keep them on a long lead and observe an old dog doing the job..Start out with a few quiet old ewes (but not with lambs at foot) and get them up against a fence,with the pup on a long lead position it between you and the fence behind the sheep .Position yourself at the "hip" of the middle of the group so they have a clear way forward ,once they begin to move fall back to the "tail" and let them "SLOWLY" make their way along the fence.In the early stages just allow about 5 min and as they become used to it extend the time and distance...I favor the Australian Working Kelpie or a Border /Kelpie X for sheep work.Please do not confuse the Australian Show Kelpie with the working variety as the show type has not got a single working bone in its body....Hope this is of assistance ...T.O.R.
Thank you! That was great assistance! I don't have an older dog for him to observe and I've never trained on herding, but I'm watching a lot of vids from an old herding dog breeder and he shows step by step what you've described, so I'm going to start with the same.

Right now I don't take Dooley into the flock without a long lead on him and with me holding it, as he's "turned on" now and wants to herd, even when I'm not around. Since that has happened, he's being put into an E system that keeps him confined to a certain area, unable to go into the paddocks unless I take him there. I only take him into the paddocks so the LGDs can get used to him being there under my supervision and don't become agitated when I allow him to approach the sheep.

Right now we are working on sorting pens and I have the rams and wethers in one paddock that we'll be sorting into pens and then I can start him on some light pen work, as you describe. Just slow, controlled moving with the accompanying commands until he seems to "get it". We've been working on "down" for the past 2 mo. since I've had him and he's spotty on it but is coming along...still needs to understand he needs to get down when I say down and not come to me and then get down. I'll have to work on a longer lead to accomplish that one, I do believe.

We'll be working on this all winter long, as time allows.
 

Mini Horses

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Yrs back, at a TX goat farm, I was privileged to watch an awesome border collie go into a paddock of goats and separate chosen ones. Before this could happen they had to take the LGDs to a kennel. The whole operation was a wonder and animals well trained. Sure gives you respect for the time, patience and knowledge required.

For large or small operations, well trained dogs are such an asset! Safe animals and unbelievable help for the farmers.

Love to watch trained herding dogs and those great cutting horses! Such workaholics!
 

Beekissed

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Yrs back, at a TX goat farm, I was privileged to watch an awesome border collie go into a paddock of goats and separate chosen ones. Before this could happen they had to take the LGDs to a kennel. The whole operation was a wonder and animals well trained. Sure gives you respect for the time, patience and knowledge required.

For large or small operations, well trained dogs are such an asset! Safe animals and unbelievable help for the farmers.

Love to watch trained herding dogs and those great cutting horses! Such workaholics!
I agree!!! I hope and pray I'll be able to train Dooley appropriately so that he'll be a help instead of a hindrance. Eventually I'd like to train the LGDs to just lie down or stay back when the sheep are being worked. For now I'll tie them and let them watch the proceedings, so I can give corrections to them if/when they become agitated by the herd dog. They are intelligent enough to learn the difference between a predator and a fellow pack member working the sheep in the presence of the shepherd. If they cannot eventually be loose but not anxious or trying to interfere, they will remain tied and quiet.

I picture a flock move wherein the LGDs lead the way and the herding dog help drive from behind and I'm going to work towards that dream.
 

The Old Ram-Australia

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Hi Bee, a further word of advice.When we had the goats and Maremmas about 30 years ago we always kenneled the LGB's when the Kelpies were at work,the risk is far too great in my opinion to the herding dog and or yourself,by all means let the LGB's observe but from a position of safety...I have observed that there are two types of herding dog ,one rely's on walk up strength and if the sheep do not respond will "push" quite hard and will often give a "nip" to assert its dominance,this action will "not" be tolerated by the LGB's IMO...The other type have a strong "eye" and the sheep will retreat before the dog as it always gives the sheep an escape route.Max has a good eye ,but in the yards will advance quite strongly and bark "on command" to move the sheep....When we had my old dog(now deceased at about 16)Jack we would walk out to the sheep leaving gates open on the way and he knew that was how the sheep were to proceed to the desired destination.......Your dream of the LGB's leading the way is exalty that ,"a dream"...Hope training goes well
,bearing in mind you are not training but "managing "its natural instincts...T.O.R.
 

Beekissed

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Hi Bee, a further word of advice.When we had the goats and Maremmas about 30 years ago we always kenneled the LGB's when the Kelpies were at work,the risk is far too great in my opinion to the herding dog and or yourself,by all means let the LGB's observe but from a position of safety...I have observed that there are two types of herding dog ,one rely's on walk up strength and if the sheep do not respond will "push" quite hard and will often give a "nip" to assert its dominance,this action will "not" be tolerated by the LGB's IMO...The other type have a strong "eye" and the sheep will retreat before the dog as it always gives the sheep an escape route.Max has a good eye ,but in the yards will advance quite strongly and bark "on command" to move the sheep....When we had my old dog(now deceased at about 16)Jack we would walk out to the sheep leaving gates open on the way and he knew that was how the sheep were to proceed to the desired destination.......Your dream of the LGB's leading the way is exalty that ,"a dream"...Hope training goes well
,bearing in mind you are not training but "managing "its natural instincts...T.O.R.
Good advice!!! I'll not let the LGDs get to the point they hurt the herder...they will be tied while the dog works. Our operation doesn't really have a way to get the dogs to a pen, as all our activities take place out in the fields, so they will have to be tied to the water wagon and moved along to the next paddock while the herder moves the sheep. They'll either get with the program or they will get gone.
 

The Old Ram-Australia

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Hi Bee, the answer is not to get rid of the LGD's but to work within the limits of the two breeds parameters.In our case we were not subject to the types of predators you have to face and so your guard dogs are an absolute necessity for a productive outcome..It is going to take time and patience to get the outcome you desire,but is is the right path for the long term...T.O.R.
 

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