Infusion of other breeds into the Angus breed and Curly Calf

[WildRoseBeef]

It's really interesting to learn about the various influences or infusions that were put into the Angus breed over the time it was first founded in around the mid 18th century. To say that the Angus breed is pure is undoubtedly saying that that person is quite ignorant and unknowledgeable about the breed's history. Of course the simple mention of the word "infusion" or "influence" can generate quite the discussion between and among cattle producers, regardless whether they're Angus producers themselves or not.

Now, the reason I created this post was because the last one I made got deleted because I mistakenly flew off the handle a bit too much and got into an unnecessary fight instead of a civil discussion. I'm creating this post because I want to be much more civil about this and also teach some of you who may not know much about the Angus breed (apart from what I wrote on the breed page seen HERE), particularly about the possible or actual influences that were put into the Angus breed itself.

What encouraged me to start this discussion was this quoted by Kfacres, which I reacted to a bit too harshly:

I think it would be hard to beat a Jersey for a home milk cow- -small, and if you don't poor the grain to them-- they won't give tons. Breed them Angus- and enjoy that beef... After all, what do you think injected the added milk, calving ease, marbling, and CURLY Calf into the Angus breed?

Naturally the possibility is there, since a Jersey-Angus cross certainly can produce quite the quality beef, for sure. Great marbling, nice small size, and good carcass characteristics from this cross (particularly if it's 1/2 Angus and 1/2 Jersey or 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Jersey). However I also have to, unfortunately, disagree with this. The reason for this is because the influence of Jersey into the Angus breed, no doubt adding to the traits mentioned above (calving ease, marbling, more milk, etc.), doesn't add any value to the breed particularly where frame size is concerned, not to mention breeding-back ability (or fertility) and muscling ability. You'd certainly get a lot of funnel-butted Angus cattle with this sort of cross, not to mention with a bit of Holstein/Friesian influence, a fact which is much more widely accepted among Angus producers than the fact about the possible Jersey influence. Holstein would definitely add more frame and more milk, not to mention reduce muscling and create more funnel-butt animals, resulting in more dairy-ish looking Angus cattle which are present in a few different lines of this breed. (Heck it's highly likely that there's some Angus influence into some lines of Holstein-Friesian cattle as well!)

While we're on the subject of breed influences into Angus cattle, there's a high possibility that Shorthorn blood has also been added to the Angus breed as well. In my breed article above I mention (from reading other breed sites on the Angus breed) that the Angus breed nearly went into extinction due to the sudden increase in popularity of the Shorthorn breed. Shorthorns were reportedly used on commercial Angus cattle to improve them, and that there's the possibility that Shorthorn had already been infused into the Angus breed before the Herd Book was closed. This fact has been denied by many breeders and members of various Angus breed societies. However, that really doesn't exactly explain why the heterosis in an Angus-Shorthorn cross is a bit lower than when crossing Angus with Herefords. Nor does it explain why many characteristics of the Angus breed can be matched (sometimes excelled) by the Shorthorn breed. Just a bit of conspiracy to consider.

Then there's the discussion about how the frame size of Angus cattle was able to increase over a short time period (over 50 years), from the average 900 to 1100 lbs to "monster cows" having mature weights around or over (or even well over) 1800 lbs. There's producers that argue that this was only due to heavy selection for larger birth weights, heavier yearling weights and the like in competition for the increasing popularity of the larger and leaner continental breeds that came to North America in the mid to late 70's, but many others agree that it would take a lot longer than 50 years for a single breed to achieve such a jump in frame sizes. It's possible that's where Holstein and/or Continental influences like Chianina or Limousin or Simmental were at play to help give that extra boost on frame sizes in the Angus breed.

Curly Calf Syndrome
Now I want to return to the quote above and talk about the issue about what used to be known as the Curly Calf Syndrome (now known as Arthrogryposis multiplex). There is certainty, from the various research done, that AM is not caused by an outside breed influences, but is merely a gene deletion (hence a defect) that has started in a particular line of Angus cattle. According to THIS LINK, Curly Calf Syndrome has been proven to have started with the maternal grandsire of GAR Precision 1680 (not GAR Precision 1680 himself, which I initially had thought), which was the bull Rito 9J9 of B156 7T26. However, according Angus Australia (AA) in this link , the true origins of CCS is not really known, but rather that 9J9 was "the deepest in the affected pedigrees that an AM carrier has been confirmed." They also state that "[a] very popular bull in the breed called GAR Precision 1680 [(which would be Rito 9J9)] and his even more popular son, CA Future Direction 5321 have been tested to be carriers of the AM condition." So, the question is how far back this AM genetic defect goes, because obviously Rito 9J9's dam and sire both may or would have had to have the defect themselves, among the other ancestors down the line. Who knows if it started even before GAR Precision 1680 was calved?

What is not disputed is that Arthrogryposis Multiplex started from a gene mutation on a single gene, or rather a deletion in only one particular gene (one that would be too complex to even mention here) that is inherited, and is only controlled by a single pair of genes. In other words, an AM calf only comes about when a bull that is an AM carrier with one copy of these gene is mated with a cow that is an AM carrier herself. There's a 50% chance that these two carriers will pass on these gene to their calves which subsequently become carriers themselves, and a 25% chance that they will produce a AM calf. But there's also a 25% chance that the sire and dam will pass on a normal, non-carrier calf. However genetics never work like that in the real world. According to the AA, reports from producers show that there were lower than expected numbers of dead and deformed calves that were confirmed to have AM, so investigation is underway to find out if there is indeed some other factors at play here that affect the incidence and occurrence of AM in this breed.

So the question as to where the Jersey breed comes into play with this can be answered thus: it doesn't. GAR Precision 1680 lines were highly popular for the calving ease and superior weaning and yearling growth (according to Curly Calf "The Straight Story" ), something which can never be found nor generated in the Jersey breed. However, not really much is known about the ancestry of Rito 9J9 and Precision 1680, and that in itself is being investigated along with the research done to see how far back the AM mutation has gone.

I had accredited the presence of Curly Calf to line-breeding, but that, upon further research, is in itself only a half truth. If curly calf was indeed a result of line-breeding, this disease wouldn't be so wide spread, in a manner of speaking, like it has. Instead it would be contained and the sire and dam traced back and culled out of the herd. Line-breeding is done to make a certain line or breed pure, just like inbreeding is, and is the quickest method to weed out certain genetic mutations, abnormalities or defects in a certain line. It is without doubt that many of the Angus cattle today can be traced back to several ancestors several times over, it shouldn't be used as a way to automatically state that line-breeding is at fault for causing curly calf or any other abnormality that is present in the Angus breed. So I was at fault for stating that.


Now, I hope that clears things up for anybody having any questions or anything of that nature in relation to the post I had made in Farmerboy's "Milking Shorthorn cow" thread which I had hijacked and got locked down (sorry for that, FB). This genetic "stuff," for lack of better terms, is certainly interesting and worth the discussion, researching and writing about.

 

[kfacres]

after 800 pounds a jersey is too marbled IMF to successfully be pushed through a grinder. It just balls up and turns to mush...

the story I have always heard is that the bull who was at fault for starting the curly calf ordeal-- tests AMC, and both of his parents do not test AMC- matter of fact- neither of them do... But, it cannot be proven that that bull by DNA- is actually the offspring of the registered parents...

 

[WildRoseBeef]

after 800 pounds a jersey is too marbled IMF to successfully be pushed through a grinder. It just balls up and turns to mush...

the story I have always heard is that the bull who was at fault for starting the curly calf ordeal-- tests AMC, and both of his parents do not test AMC- matter of fact- neither of them do... But, it cannot be proven that that bull by DNA- is actually the offspring of the registered parents...

Ahhh good point! See that's the whole shebang about this thing, is that it could've started at the bull (9J9...or Precision, if you're referring to him and not 9j9) right from the get-go, but then again it could've started from somewhere else. One of the articles I posted said that this defect was first noticed on the Gardiner Angus Ranch where there was calves that where born with the fatal defect--twisted spine and all--around 1991 at the Gardinar's ranch, the place where GAR Precision originated from, but the geneticist that did tests on them couldn't really verify that it was really AM or not. Out of 27, 000 calves, 11 came out with the deformity. Only six had no Precision bloodline in them. Hmmm... that's enough to make one think a bit...

And yeah, like I had mentioned and you did as well, the ancestry of Precision is a bit murky.

I'd certainly would love to hear about the results scientists find about AM and the Precision (or not) line....so I guess we've no choice but to stay tuned!

 

[kfacres]

so do you still argue with me in which the curly calf genes have been in the jersey breed for MANY MANY years?

Would you like to argue that the TH did not originate from the Galloways?

 

[kfacres]

I have been to GAR- and for the life of me cannot remember the place we went to that had all the Jersey influenced Angus-- as they called them. When you travel as much as we did- they all blend together after the years pass bye. i do remember this herd that we visited owner and our team had sat down to lunch- and he was telling us about this group of cattle they had bought. All were basically generic GAR cattle- stacked two and three deep generation wise with GAR bull- especially 1680. I guess dang neared the entire herd was tested, and came back AMC. They bought them for virtually nothing-- to use as recips. he told us to go back and we'd be able to pick out every bred heifer from the pen-- about 35 were bought, and the rest of the 100 were his. He was right- those they had bought were not as thick anywhere, had flat bone, and were quite a bit sharper over the withers. i guess the cowherd was the same way- but we did not even see them, as we were there judging bred heifers. That guy knew those cattle had Jersey in them- and wasn't afraid to tell us, didn't matter they were all destined for recips haven.

Anyways, same thing at GAR-- very dairy type heifers. if you think these guys aren't just using a little of something- then your wrong. I don't remember much for phenominal growth from those cattle-- they were CARCASS cattle. About that time is when the Angus people really pushed the number's game-- and got them quite banana legged-- banana legged?? Yup- flat boned, and too much set-- just like a JERSEY.

Believe what you want, but I don't often tell stories for my health or reputation. I kick the can around some- but I've been around the block a time or 2.

 

[WildRoseBeef]

I have been to GAR- and for the life of me cannot remember the place we went to that had all the Jersey influenced Angus-- as they called them. When you travel as much as we did- they all blend together after the years pass bye. i do remember this herd that we visited owner and our team had sat down to lunch- and he was telling us about this group of cattle they had bought. All were basically generic GAR cattle- stacked two and three deep generation wise with GAR bull- especially 1680. I guess dang neared the entire herd was tested, and came back AMC. They bought them for virtually nothing-- to use as recips. he told us to go back and we'd be able to pick out every bred heifer from the pen-- about 35 were bought, and the rest of the 100 were his. He was right- those they had bought were not as thick anywhere, had flat bone, and were quite a bit sharper over the withers. i guess the cowherd was the same way- but we did not even see them, as we were there judging bred heifers. That guy knew those cattle had Jersey in them- and wasn't afraid to tell us, didn't matter they were all destined for recips haven.

Anyways, same thing at GAR-- very dairy type heifers. if you think these guys aren't just using a little of something- then your wrong. I don't remember much for phenominal growth from those cattle-- they were CARCASS cattle. About that time is when the Angus people really pushed the number's game-- and got them quite banana legged-- banana legged?? Yup- flat boned, and too much set-- just like a JERSEY.

Believe what you want, but I don't often tell stories for my health or reputation. I kick the can around some- but I've been around the block a time or 2.

Yeah you're not kidding either! Wowee, thanks for that story, that's quite interesting. I did mention before that the possibility's there, and undoubtedly I don't think I'll argue with you about that anymore, for sure, especially since I don't have much or better evidence to even dispute what you said. The thing is it just makes you wonder why (not what) the American Angus Association likes to keep things like this under wraps, essentially sweeping it under the rug, so to speak. And your story definitely seems to confirm the reason why GAR Precision bloodlines/ancestry are unknown or murky...or rather "unknown" to the general public, even the other producers who are not all that aware of what's really going on behind locked doors with the AAA or GAR bloodlines.

That also explains the carcass values. Now with the growth part, do you think they were BSing on that? Or do you think they may have thrown an extra breed in there to help with that?

As for the TH thing with Galloways...well since it's supposed/likely that the Galloway breed had been infused into the Shorthorn breed a long time ago, that may have to be a no there as well.




BTW I wish I could take back the way I was with you yesterday morning. I do apologize for that, and hope we can start fresh again on the right foot. Besides, I'm always learning something new every day. So no hard feelings?

 

[kfacres]

The infusion of other breeds is not new- although it is getting rarer and rarer with required DNA'ing that is going on now a days. However, it seems that with the right political pull-- something always slips under the rug. I know that a Maine bull- Cunia 602 had his papers pulled b/c they cannot find anything to match his DNA. So if the ass'n is going to have a DNA policy-- but only enforces it 95% of the time-- what good does it do? I also know of other ways to get around a DNA test- and falsify them.

I will say that the AAA does a far better job of exposing, and educating about the lethal, or non lethal genetic defects than any other breed does. I raise Shorthorns- and that breed is very under cover when it comes to things like this. Just recently, a new defect has surfaced that has people really TO'd-- but b/c of another online forum-- it finally surfaced and has to be brought to attention of the breeders.

The TH deal is obvious that it started with Deerpark Improver-- a bull imported from overseas. The actual pedigrees of many of the Irish cattle are quite unknown, especially now that they have DNA to prove it. Most of these bull's pedigrees are just dead ends-- and the Galloway is proven to be in there on more than one account. There are certain bulls that are paperd as Improver sons or grandsons-- and they have zero blood relationship, there were bulls imported after Improver was- -who were supposed to be sired by Improver-- but no semen was ever shipped back from him- and he came over here younger than breeding age-- figure that out? Heck, there are bulls over here that were born, and papered as sons of bulls that were only 12 or 13 months older than they were- very fertile at 3 months of age I'd say???

The growth numbers- I think partially are bogus- but I also think partially to blame would be the other side of the pedigree. It's amazing that thing we call outcross and hybrid vigor-- if you can get both of those things lined up in a 'purebred' animal, then you are going to have extra growth. You get the X factor growth- plus you fudge the number some-- and it doesn't take much to get a superior growthy animal.... Then if you take that animal and breed it to say big framed Angus cows-- you'll keep it. Another thing that really plays into EPD's-= is contempary groups. It doesn't take much to make one bull calf looks superior when say a ranch has 500 born-- and he 'weans' or records a yearling weight a couple hundred pounds more than anything else on the place-- whether he does or not.

Now, I'm not saying that every, or even a percentage of the Angus, or any other breed- are corupt and outsourcing genetics; and I'm also not saying that they are runing a cowherd that's half Jersey. But what I am saying is that it doesn't take very much of an influence for someone to make if they use highly prepotent genetics, and certain bloodlines- I wouldn't be suprised if they are 1/8 or so of an outside influnce. Look at the TH deal- Improver was born in the 70s, and TH surfaced in the early 2000s? PHA same ordeal-- traced to Paramount- who also was born in the 70s-- and it surfaced 2 years after TH.

Right now, something that really hits home with me-- is the newly found Hairy lamb disorder found in Southdowns. For the past 5 years, many other breeds have been injecting Southdowns into their genetics for whatever reason-- I think it will be a matter of time before Hairy lambs will be found in those other breeds as well-- look at Spider lamb syndrome-- started with a single suffolk ram in the 80s I believe "Walking Tall"== and today it's found in every black faced breed of common sheep in the US- and quite a few white faced breeds.

ETA: once you get a good, high accuracy EPD set established-it's pretty hard to change them. My easiest calving low birthweight cow family on the place-- still has plus 4.0 BW epds-- but that whole cow line has never had a calf over 70 lbs. But, b/c two generations away is a sire that's plus 5.2 BW-- it still carries down. Even further back- like 5 generations away-- is a cow with a plus 5.0 bw.

 

[WildRoseBeef]

So I guess that's why even the EPD numbers will lie...and why the producer's I've talked to on other forums say to never take EPDs for granted, but to have a close look at the animal (not just in a picture, but actually in the same pen as that animal you're interested in) before believing what the EPDs say. Which is something that I certainly can strongly agree with!

I just wonder why people would do something like that, lying about the fact that some sons were "sired" by Improver when the obvious fact is that they really weren't? Is it because they're ashamed of the fact that there's other breeds in the woodpile, or something else entirely? Hope I'm not repeating myself by asking this, if you've already answered it, but it's just something I've always wondered, especially now that we've got this discussion going.

And that's even more fascinating about the DNA tests you mentioned about. I guess now you could almost say that the DNA testing is more of a threat to producers from breed associations to have actual purebred animals, not animals that are 1/8th or 1/16th of something else. Then again, like you say if an animal does come in with, say, 1/32 Jersey blood (in reference to the GAR Angus bloodline), there are ways to fudge the results to make a bull or cow appear 100% Angus. Some which you probably wouldn't think wise to post on here, right?

And as for CAB....well that's a different discussion all together, and something I don't want to get started on, otherwise I'll get into a rant-mode about that...

 

[kfacres]

So I guess that's why even the EPD numbers will lie...and why the producer's I've talked to on other forums say to never take EPDs for granted, but to have a close look at the animal (not just in a picture, but actually in the same pen as that animal you're interested in) before believing what the EPDs say. Which is something that I certainly can strongly agree with!

I just wonder why people would do something like that, lying about the fact that some sons were "sired" by Improver when the obvious fact is that they really weren't? Is it because they're ashamed of the fact that there's other breeds in the woodpile, or something else entirely? Hope I'm not repeating myself by asking this, if you've already answered it, but it's just something I've always wondered, especially now that we've got this discussion going.

And that's even more fascinating about the DNA tests you mentioned about. I guess now you could almost say that the DNA testing is more of a threat to producers from breed associations to have actual purebred animals, not animals that are 1/8th or 1/16th of something else. Then again, like you say if an animal does come in with, say, 1/32 Jersey blood (in reference to the GAR Angus bloodline), there are ways to fudge the results to make a bull or cow appear 100% Angus. Some which you probably wouldn't think wise to post on here, right?

And as for CAB....well that's a different discussion all together, and something I don't want to get started on, otherwise I'll get into a rant-mode about that...

I am one that does not believe EPD- in just about every breed I am involved with. I do think they need to be used as a tool-- but only in certain cases. Physical will only get you so far as well, IMO... Pedigree, is something I'm a big believer in though- as long as it's correct-- then more times than not it will breed predictably. This is why I choose to keep my herd and flock closed to unknown sources. I use my stuff, and stuff from people I trust-- either true pedigreed-- or atleast honest enough to tell me what's really in that pedigree.

The at the time, breed association secretary of the Shorthorns-- is the one who slapped the false pedigrees on board. The Irish deals were just a big flurry, and those breeders who've been over there say that multiple cows with the same registration paper existed.

Most often false pedigrees are made by using false genetics (outsourced breeding), they superior offspring will get papered as offspring of the new, popular, promo bull, or the pedigrees will get changed due to someone having stock from someone they don't want to promote stock from.

The most false way to pass a DNA test-- is to submit DNA from the actual animal as you are registering your's as... For instance- I have a bull calf I want to paper as AxB. When in all reality he is sired by bull C, and maybe from cow B or not... Submit DNA on a calf which is AxB- and you'll pass the DNA test... For future generations- you're DNA is passable, as it's just used to varify parentals.

 

[WildRoseBeef]

That is just messed up lol...the DNA thing I mean...

Certainly learned alot from this discussion...thanks for all that. I'll remember to bug you again if I have any questions regarding this sort of thing.