Finnie
Herd Master
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Does your vet allow you to text photos? He might like to see that, and then advise.
Leonidas' Story
- Thread starter Margali
- Start date
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- #42
Margali
Herd Master
Leo's leg is still doing good. Nice and clean from him licking it.
- Thread starter
- #43
Margali
Herd Master
Here is video session of training. I think we were doing great till Biscuit spooked the sheep. Working on training "Come Here", "Sit", and "Calmly" as well as leash manners. Previous owners thought the jumping was cute and didn't correct.
Opinions on how I corrected his attention when they ran? @Ridgetop @Baymule
Opinions on how I corrected his attention when they ran? @Ridgetop @Baymule
Baymule
Herd Master
First in my mind is him jumping on you. Knee him in the chest, HARD. Like back flip HARD. With a AAHHNNTTT!
He did good on alerting on the house dog. He did good on sit—at least ones. LOL
On chasing, he gets to the end of the line, I think it is too long. Shorter line, more control, be closer to the sheep for better communication and correction. Maybe half as long. And maybe use a choke chain collar. When he makes a dive for the sheep, pull hard, AAAHHNNTT!
Being closer to him would get his attention better. You are at the end of a long lead and easier to ignore.
But make sure he is going after the sheep before you correct him. He was alerting on the house dog and at first it looked like he was going for the sheep.
He did good on alerting on the house dog. He did good on sit—at least ones. LOL
On chasing, he gets to the end of the line, I think it is too long. Shorter line, more control, be closer to the sheep for better communication and correction. Maybe half as long. And maybe use a choke chain collar. When he makes a dive for the sheep, pull hard, AAAHHNNTT!
Being closer to him would get his attention better. You are at the end of a long lead and easier to ignore.
But make sure he is going after the sheep before you correct him. He was alerting on the house dog and at first it looked like he was going for the sheep.
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- #45
Margali
Herd Master
He is on a fabric choke chain aka martingale. I will try a shortening the line for next session.
Any ideas for stopping the jumping that don't involve a seriously clumsy lady balancing on one leg while trying to correct a dog that is almost 50% of her mass? I tried the knee in chest on Thursday and ended up eating turf. He did stop jumping to check on me atleast.
Any ideas for stopping the jumping that don't involve a seriously clumsy lady balancing on one leg while trying to correct a dog that is almost 50% of her mass? I tried the knee in chest on Thursday and ended up eating turf. He did stop jumping to check on me atleast.
Baymule
Herd Master
You could try the puppy yipe, but it’s only effective a couple of times.
When puppies are playing and one gets too rough, the hurt puppy YIPE! YIPE! and cries. The puppies stop, look worried, check on hurt puppy. You could save this for the right moment.
Ok, jumping on you, advance and step on his feet. Of course I know he’s fast, you might wind up on the ground again. But it will hard for him to jump on you if you are stomping his feet.
A firm DOWN! And yank that leash. He’s young, excited, and it looks like he’s just so darn happy to be there. With a shorter lead, it may give you a little more control.
I’m still trying with Buford, the Whirling Dervish. He gets so excited that he spins in circles. He’s so big that it’s like getting hit by a car. When I let him out of the night pen, I hug the tree next to it. LOL He’s calm and sweet after he eats and has a full tummy. But that doesn’t last long.
I’ve growled at Buford, grabbed him by the scruff of the neck on both sides, snarling and doing my best Sentry Bad A$$ impression. It put him in a listening mode for a few moments. I’ve been tempted to bite him….. If I get onto Buford, Sheba jumps him too. Kinda nice.
So maybe include Hera in training sessions. If he’s acting the fool, she may lose patience and trash him. If he’s screaming bloody murder and she sounds like she’s killing him, don’t be worried. Sentry and Sheba have only drawn blood on Dummy a few times. If Hera trashed him, just let it happen and don’t interfere. Dont feel too sorry for him either.
When puppies are playing and one gets too rough, the hurt puppy YIPE! YIPE! and cries. The puppies stop, look worried, check on hurt puppy. You could save this for the right moment.
Ok, jumping on you, advance and step on his feet. Of course I know he’s fast, you might wind up on the ground again. But it will hard for him to jump on you if you are stomping his feet.
A firm DOWN! And yank that leash. He’s young, excited, and it looks like he’s just so darn happy to be there. With a shorter lead, it may give you a little more control.
I’m still trying with Buford, the Whirling Dervish. He gets so excited that he spins in circles. He’s so big that it’s like getting hit by a car. When I let him out of the night pen, I hug the tree next to it. LOL He’s calm and sweet after he eats and has a full tummy. But that doesn’t last long.
I’ve growled at Buford, grabbed him by the scruff of the neck on both sides, snarling and doing my best Sentry Bad A$$ impression. It put him in a listening mode for a few moments. I’ve been tempted to bite him….. If I get onto Buford, Sheba jumps him too. Kinda nice.
So maybe include Hera in training sessions. If he’s acting the fool, she may lose patience and trash him. If he’s screaming bloody murder and she sounds like she’s killing him, don’t be worried. Sentry and Sheba have only drawn blood on Dummy a few times. If Hera trashed him, just let it happen and don’t interfere. Dont feel too sorry for him either.
- Thread starter
- #47
Margali
Herd Master
I'm going to try the pie pan to face recommended on FB forum and shorter lead so he doesn't have as much build up room.
I'm using puppy YIPE for paws or jaws on me. His toenails are wicked sharp and made bleeding scratches. He's learned at least in night pen no paws on me. Just too dang excited being out.
Hera is keeping her distance after he knocked her over. At least while I'm out there "in charge" of him. We will see how she corrects him while I'm out of sight. Her mood / willingness to interact will probably improve once we get out of cold rainy weather.
I'm using puppy YIPE for paws or jaws on me. His toenails are wicked sharp and made bleeding scratches. He's learned at least in night pen no paws on me. Just too dang excited being out.
Hera is keeping her distance after he knocked her over. At least while I'm out there "in charge" of him. We will see how she corrects him while I'm out of sight. Her mood / willingness to interact will probably improve once we get out of cold rainy weather.
Baymule
Herd Master
I loved the pie pan idea. BOP! On head, hide behind back. Maybe a loose tshirt and stuff it under shirt for hands free?
Ridgetop
Herd Master
I don't want to be considered a trainer of LGDs, and most everything I have earned has been taught to me by Erick, and observation of Rika and my other dogs. I did obedience train all my other breeds of dogs intensely. They were on hand signals as well as voice commands. LGDs are completely different. I am lucky if my LGDs come when called if they are after a predator. LOL
Also remember that when the sheep run the LGD assumes they are running from danger. If they are running out from the small night pen, the guardian wants to run to get ahead of them in case there is an unknown danger there. It they are running away from him he runs to see what they are afraid of. Since they keep running, he assumes that the danger is still present. Maybe on the other side of the flock or where he can't see it so he cuts through the flock in an effort to get there before the predator attacks. As he gets older, he will learn to run around the flock instead of through it, and he will learn to patrol the field before the sheep are let out in the morning. If he is not patrolling the field at night, this is a good reason to let him out into the field before the sheep come out of the night pen. (Ozel still often rounds up the sheep and herds them back in the night pen in the morning when they try to run out on the field.)
This is a young dog and has been badly trained to this point. In spite of his actual age, you have to treat him like a very young puppy who needs to be trained from the beginning. Work on the jumping on you specifically every day for about 10-15 minutes without the sheep. Once he has learned that jumping on you as pack master is not tolerated, he will begin to accept other corrections to his behavior.
One thing I noticed in the video is that you called his name a lot. Were you calling him back to you? If not, I wouldn't call his name without a command since he will learn to ignore the use of his name when out with the sheep. You want him to respond to his name quickly and if he hears you using it all the time when you are not giving any command, he will ignore it when you need him to respond.
Why did you want him not to chew the stick? By picking up the stick and chewing on it he was signaling that he was happy to allow the sheep to go about their business and was no longer interested in chasing them. By telling him to drop the stick you were refocusing his attention on the sheep, and he may have read that as your intention for him to chase.
Remember that an LGD is not a good obedience dog. They do not respond to training like other dogs and if they believe there is danger they will ignore you. They can hear and smell what we cannot so trusting your dog is imperative. However, in Leonidas' case, he has not received any LGD training so trusting him will take a long period of you training him.
You are doing great. Hera is giving him a wide berth because last time she punished him she hurt her leg.
Don't wait for him to jump on you before doing the hard knee to the gut since you are not expecting it and cannot brace yourself. Instead coax him to jump on you. Sounds counterproductive, but it isn't. Talk excited baby talk, call his name, pat your chest, call him to you and brace yourself for when he runs up all happy and jumps up on you. Step into his leap and really knee him hard in the gut. He needs to make a strong "OOF" sound. If you can knock him over even better. Tell him "NO" in an angry tone as you do this. Then when he comes up with all 4 feet on the ground bend over and tell him how good he is. Keep doing this until he realizes that he gets knocked down when he jumps. As soon as he runs up and stays on the ground fuss over him big time. You can also enforce the "sit" command when working on the jumping by making hm sit to be petted. I don't use the "down" command for anything except lay down. I use the "off" command but whatever you want to use, it has to be consistent. You can't teach him to lay down with the "down" command and also use it as a warning not to jump on you. It will confuse him.
Also remember that when the sheep run the LGD assumes they are running from danger. If they are running out from the small night pen, the guardian wants to run to get ahead of them in case there is an unknown danger there. It they are running away from him he runs to see what they are afraid of. Since they keep running, he assumes that the danger is still present. Maybe on the other side of the flock or where he can't see it so he cuts through the flock in an effort to get there before the predator attacks. As he gets older, he will learn to run around the flock instead of through it, and he will learn to patrol the field before the sheep are let out in the morning. If he is not patrolling the field at night, this is a good reason to let him out into the field before the sheep come out of the night pen. (Ozel still often rounds up the sheep and herds them back in the night pen in the morning when they try to run out on the field.)
This is a young dog and has been badly trained to this point. In spite of his actual age, you have to treat him like a very young puppy who needs to be trained from the beginning. Work on the jumping on you specifically every day for about 10-15 minutes without the sheep. Once he has learned that jumping on you as pack master is not tolerated, he will begin to accept other corrections to his behavior.
One thing I noticed in the video is that you called his name a lot. Were you calling him back to you? If not, I wouldn't call his name without a command since he will learn to ignore the use of his name when out with the sheep. You want him to respond to his name quickly and if he hears you using it all the time when you are not giving any command, he will ignore it when you need him to respond.
Why did you want him not to chew the stick? By picking up the stick and chewing on it he was signaling that he was happy to allow the sheep to go about their business and was no longer interested in chasing them. By telling him to drop the stick you were refocusing his attention on the sheep, and he may have read that as your intention for him to chase.
I would take him into the small night pen with the sheep and see how he interacts with them. If he doesn't try to play with them in the small pen, you can try in the large pen again. The long training lead is only used after the dog is responding to commands on the short training lead. Remember also that he needs to recognize his sheep by scent as well as sight. Allow him to go up and smell each one. They need to smell and identify him as a member of the flock instead of as a predator.
Remember that an LGD is not a good obedience dog. They do not respond to training like other dogs and if they believe there is danger they will ignore you. They can hear and smell what we cannot so trusting your dog is imperative. However, in Leonidas' case, he has not received any LGD training so trusting him will take a long period of you training him.
You are doing great. Hera is giving him a wide berth because last time she punished him she hurt her leg.
- Thread starter
- #50
Margali
Herd Master
@Ridgetop All good info. I will work with him on basic commands in 13'x10' LGD newbie pen. Then I will also work in the shed night pen with shorter lead. My thoughts which might have been wrong was room to get away in paddock would lessen sheep's anxiety/ fear.
I'm not sure if you could hear me over wind. That stick was off honey locust tree with 3in thorns and punctures like to fester. I keep them picked up but wind must have shaken that loose. I did not want him to stab himself in mouth. I have a variety of oak and elm sticks along with dog toys and bones in his pen.
I'm not sure if you could hear me over wind. That stick was off honey locust tree with 3in thorns and punctures like to fester. I keep them picked up but wind must have shaken that loose. I did not want him to stab himself in mouth. I have a variety of oak and elm sticks along with dog toys and bones in his pen.
