Need advice about feeding hay while renovating pasture

[matchadog]

I am a little overwhelmed and need some advice. Long story short-

I bought a home on 4.5 acres a little over a year ago. About half of my land is pasture that the previous owner let get completely overgrown with foxtail. Not knowing any better, I let it get tall last summer and go to seed. I mowed it short with my zero turn after it had started to die-September or October. The other half of my property-the area around my house-is some type of cool season grass. I have no idea what variety it is but tall fescue is very common in this area.

We are planning to get 3 Nigerian Dwarf doelings this spring. These are our first goats. They will be pets but we also plan to use them for dairy. My plan was (is?) to fence in an area that is roughly 3,000 sq ft (48x64). This area would have some wooden spools, shade shelters, the goat shed, etc. The area we are fencing is the area with the unknown grass but let's pretend it is tall fescue since it is common here. If the goats are fed a horse quality hay, is it okay to house them on tall fescue? Is having the goats in this size pen going to create management problems from a parasite perspective?

Longer term, I am working on eradicating the foxtail from my other 2 acres and planting....something. Probably a rye/kentucky bluegrass/fine fescue mix. Maybe with some clover. Something that would give us some more options in a year or two.

If I'm feeding them a quality hay (probably brome and alfalfa), is it okay to house them as I'm describing? Is tall fescue an issue in this scenario if that's what I have? Am I setting myself up for a parasite problem by not doing rotational grazing if I'm feeding hay?

Thanks

 

[farmerjan]

Please post where you are.... general location/state.... as the advise will differ for different areas of the country.

I HATE FESCUE. BUT it is very resilient. If you go to planting something with fescue in it make sure it is endophyte free.

Here we would plant a "nurse crop" like rye or wheat, and then use a pasture mix that is orchard grass/clover/ with other grasses. Do not overlook "crab grass" as most all animals like it. It is also very hardy and can take alot of abuse. Stay away from any of the sorghums and do not get anything with Johnson grasses either. There is toxicity in them if the plants are stressed (like drought then quick growth) and with frost on green growing plants.
Understand that the goats will like to browse more than they actually like to graze. I don't think I would do much of anything right off the bat. Fence them in the area that you want to renovate and see if they won't "eat it down".

I don't know, is there a reason that you don't want the goats in the foxtail? Do they not like it? I am not a goat person but have cattle and sheep. If the seeds are the problem, as I have read, then if you keep the plants mowed down to where they cannot form seed heads then you will not have that problem to deal with.
Again, I don't think that we have much in the way of foxtail here so don't know about it. We have enough other "weed crops" to deal with.

 

[Beekissed]

Is having the goats in this size pen going to create management problems from a parasite perspective?

Yes. Any time you have livestock on the same patch of soil for extended periods of time, you risk parasite issues.

Longer term, I am working on eradicating the foxtail from my other 2 acres and planting....something. Probably a rye/kentucky bluegrass/fine fescue mix. Maybe with some clover. Something that would give us some more options in a year or two.

You can do that....but in a couple of years, the tall fescue will come right back and you will have wasted your money and time. I'd fence in the entire area with high tensile and do rotational grazing with polybraid to get that pasture looking the way you want. The only input you need is those goats to transform your pasture....maybe MORE goats, in fact, to do it properly. The key is bunching them into small paddocks and moving them often so that the grass gets periods of trampling and grazing and periods of rest. This also gives parasites time to die before the area is grazed again.

This guy can explain what this does for the land and for the grass growth....got to watch a few of his vids to get the gist of regenerative ranching and how many are dealing with fescue by grazing in such a way that a variety of grasses come up through the fescue from seeds already in the seed bank or in the hay you roll out on the land until you get established pasture. This is just one of the guys grazing livestock this way and he has a wealth of information that can still be applied to smaller operations.

Is tall fescue an issue in this scenario if that's what I have?

Am I setting myself up for a parasite problem by not doing rotational grazing if I'm feeding hay?

Yes, I believe you will have problems with parasites~or more than usual~if you don't rotate them to fresh soils.

You've got the right ideas and are asking the right questions, so with the right research I think you'll be able to get where you want to go on your land. Your goats can help you get there, so don't fence them off the weeds....let them eat them down for you and create better pasture at the same time.

 

[matchadog]

Hmmm....thanks for the info. I'm still a little confused about my options so I'm going to provide some more details about our situation. This will be long so bear with me. As far as location, I am about 30 minutes west of Kansas City. NE part of the state. Zone 6A. Just to clarify, I have 2 very different things going on-

1. Area 1 is what I would consider "my yard". There is a cool season grass planted that I am assuming is tall fescue but I don't know this. This is where I am planning to build my 48'x64' goat yard and goat pen fenced in with goat panels. The goats would be fed a high quality hay diet and would not be reliant on foraging.
2. Area 2 is the field that is overgrown with foxtail. When I say overgrown, I mean it is 90-95% of what's going on out there. The previous owner/my current neighbor let this part of the field grow wild. His brother in law would cut and bale it once or twice a summer. This was done solely to keep the agricultural designation on the land for tax purposes. Land and soil improvement weren't a consideration. There is very, very sparse grass growth under the foxtail. I don't know what this grass is. It could be tall fescue, it could be something entirely different.

The property has no existing fencing. I might be able to fence it this year but it may get pushed to next year depending on finances. If I get the fencing done this year, it would likely be at the end of the summer. The goats will be here in May or June. The fencing will be 4' field fencing around the perimeter of the property. It will not include dedicated paddocks. My primary reason for the fencing has more to do with being able to let the dogs out off leash and creating a physical deterrent for coyotes, etc.

The farm I am getting the goats from said that foxtail was an absolute no no and that I would be smart to try to eradicate it from my pastures. Frankly, if I wasn't planning on getting goats, I would plant tall fescue out there in a heartbeat as it would give us and the dogs more of a "yard" to play in.

I don't have a tractor which makes everything more difficult. I have someone who will come fertilize Area 2. I'm looking for someone who could come seed Area 2 but I don't have that lined up yet and don't know how difficult that may prove to be. The lack of a tractor may also make moving any sort of temporary goat shelter difficult if we ever did get set up for rotational grazing.

Clearly my first step in all of this needs to be determining if either Area 1 or Area 2 currently have tall fescue.

So, I guess this leaves me with the following options/questions-

1. I don't want to use Area 2 at all for at least a year for 3 main reasons. I really want to eradicate the foxtail and plant something else out there. I am not comfortable grazing the goats in that area until this is done. Even if I was tempted to do this, there is a ton of foxtail seed on the ground from me cutting it last fall and I have no way to rectify that. There is no fencing out there at the moment.
2. I've seen folks use 4 goat panels to rotational graze. If I attempted this in Area 1 while I work on Area 2 for the first year I have several questions about how this would work as Area 1 is much smaller than Area 2. How often would a 16'x16' area supporting 3 ND does need to be moved? Do you need to let an area rest for an entire 12 months before you can use it again? The answers to these questions will dictate whether or not we can even entertain this idea. If we were able to set up a small rotational grazing scheme, we would still have to lock them in the permanent goat pen/goat yard at night/when out of town/when does have kids as it will be much more predator proof than any 4 panel grazing pen.
3. Does keeping any sort of poultry-chickens, ducks, turkey, geese- change these considerations at all? I know people keep them either with goats or to follow behind goats in a rotational system to keep parasites down. Does this change the equation at all if I decide to keep the goats in a stationary pen for a year as I've already described? Does it change how quickly goats can go back to the same land in a rotational system where poultry follow goats? I only have chickens at the moment-are other birds better suited to this task?
4. If I do have tall fescue....does this mean that I feed high quality hay so they don't forage for food or does this mean I can't keep goats at all? Will they eat the fescue when they have better options available to them?

One last nugget. I may be able to talk my husband into a few more birds if that helps solve some of my problems but more animals otherwise is out of the question. He is already completely overwhelmed with the idea of 3 goats.

Sorry for the long post but I hope this is a better explanation of what I perceive as my options. Thanks for the information so far, it has given me much to think about. I will definitely watch the videos.

 

[matchadog]

Here is the basic layout of the property. There is not as much tree cover as this picture suggests. The trees that are there are all pretty small. There are some large parts of Area 1 that I would not use if I were to rotational graze this area while working on the other part. The front yard and the area in front of the garage are off limits. Too close to the road, too much of an opportunity for someone to take them. We aren't home during the day. The area to the west of the house in Area 1 is blocked off for my garden. Some of the remainder is pretty sloped so it may be difficult. Anyway, pictures are helpful to me so I thought I'd add this.

 

[Beekissed]

Fighting Foxtail in a Small Pasture

Weed control, management, ecology, and minutia

ucanr.edu

Since you are keeping these goats as pets and will only have a few, it's likely you can't implement the type of grazing it would take to encourage other types of grasses and legumes to fill in around your fescue and help keep the goats from getting toxic on it, but I'll post a few links and vids anyway.

If you do a few searches on Google and on YT, you can find tons of info on how folks are getting around the tall fescue issue for their goats and other livestock. Most seem pretty labor intensive and costly to me, especially for just a few goats, but if it's worth it to you, then it's an option.

 

[matchadog]

Fighting Foxtail in a Small Pasture

Weed control, management, ecology, and minutia

ucanr.edu

Since you are keeping these goats as pets and will only have a few, it's likely you can't implement the type of grazing it would take to encourage other types of grasses and legumes to fill in around your fescue and help keep the goats from getting toxic on it, but I'll post a few links and vids anyway.

If you do a few searches on Google and on YT, you can find tons of info on how folks are getting around the tall fescue issue for their goats and other livestock. Most seem pretty labor intensive and costly to me, especially for just a few goats, but if it's worth it to you, then it's an option.

I'll spend some time on the internet this weekend looking to see what folks are doing. If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that if I have tall fescue I have to eradicate it no matter how much or what else I am feeding? Is that accurate?

 

[Beekissed]

I'll spend some time on the internet this weekend looking to see what folks are doing. If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that if I have tall fescue I have to eradicate it no matter how much or what else I am feeding? Is that accurate?

That seems to be the attitude of many. I've shown you a few links and vids of folks who have learned to live WITH it by grazing in such a way as to encourage other grasses to flourish within the fescue so that every mouthful is a mix of other grasses that kind of water down the power of the fescue. Those people also cull for animals in their herds and flocks that do well on this type of management, but since you are not going for that kind of setup, it's likely not feasible for you.

So, in light of that, the other alternative is to change the fescue in various ways by overseeding, planting cover crops, etc.

Either way it's going to take some research and then management if you want to graze. If you don't and just want to have a feedlot situation, then you'll have to manage parasite loads within that system.

There are plenty of folks on here with goats who could probably help you weigh those options. C'mon, goat people.....want to chime in?

 

[Duckfarmerpa1]

if not having a tractor is one of your issues...we do have tractors, but, on the fly, just used the truck real quick to move the goat shed one day...the fencing we pull up and move manually, because, rotation is really important, plus, you’ll find..at least ours did..they got bored, and we got muddy spots..and I didn’t want to risk hoove issues. It is a flat area, but it got muddy due to all the rain this summer, etc. And, despite what people say..goats are very picky..they will choose what bit they want to eat out of the yard...not mow it down like you would think. I only have two goats..well I did have three for a bit...but are they going to have some trees near to nibble on or have shade? It’s not at all a necessity, but they love it...we are actually in the process of planning what to plant next year. We mowed down 15 acres of Timothy hay...that’s all w3 have here....and were in the talking phase for planting. If you’re really looking to reseed and do this over years...you might want to look into a used tractor? i really don’t know anything about planting new hays yet....but, we did buy a lot of farm equipment this year...and we saw it as an investment in our farm and future. Keep me posted on the goats please!!

 

[farmerjan]

I am not sure why you are so terribly worried about the tall fescue for the goats. The toxic endophytes occur mostly if the plants are stressed. That will not be the case if the goats are grazing it regularly in area 2. They will not eat it first. It is not as palatable or desireable for grazing. It gets sweeter once frosted in the fall and makes great grazing for animals in cooler/colder weather. It is very good for extending your grazing season. I don't like it because it is not nearly as palatible and our cows will ignore it for grazing except late in the fall. We cut alot of it on rented land for hay. It makes decent hay. I don't think they do as good on it but it is one grass that is common and so you work around it. There are a few things to watch for; but if they have other stuff to eat, you will likely not see any big problems with it.
Goats are first and foremost browsers. They want to get into vines, and briers, and "scrub brush" to chew on. GOOD QUALITY hay is great, but they will walk away from it if they have some good old fashioned rough ground to go nibble on branches and twigs etc. It's their nature. That is why they are so good at clearing land, because they will devour all the stuff that you find to be undesireable. That's not to say that you shouldn't provide them with good nutrition. But they will go after what they want and what their bodies crave.
If you have any trees that you don't want damaged, make sure the goats cannot get to them. They will strip the bark off trees as high as they can reach up. Sheep will also to a lesser extent.

So to answer the question.... no you do not have to eradicate tall fescue. They will do alot of ignoring it if they have better feed available.

The foxtail is not something I know about because it just isn't something that is in Va..

Is there a co-op, feed store, or something in the area? Our co-op is associated with Southern States. They have field guys who help people with "deciding what to do with their land".... advise on spraying, how to renovate a field, crops or grasses to plant and all that.
I think that you really need to talk to someone in the Extension service for your county. Your tax dollars helps to pay for them, so get an extension agent to come out, give you some ideas. That is their job. Get an "expert" opinion on what type of grass you have. See if there is anyone in the area that has goats. Maybe a goat breeders group. Get some ideas from them or have a fellow goat person come out and look it over and tell them what you want to do. I think that you are trying to "overthink" it and it is making you so worried about it to the point of panic. Really, if you mow the fescue a few times to prevent it from going to seed, it will make a fair to decent pasture grass. Fescue is something nearly impossible to irradicate. You learn to live with it. I hate it, but it costs a fortune to renovate a pasture and get rid of it. We have the equipment to do it and still have lots of it. We do hayfield renovations regularly to keep it out of the orchard grass hay that we grow and sell. But aside from being dilligent about the johnson grass because we can't sell the hay with that in it, we have fescue in most pastures.

You are going to have parasites in goats. In a rotational grazing situation, you will have less problems normally. But if you are planning to have them in a "safe pen" for their protection from predators, then you will have parasites. Some animals are more resistant to them. You learn to deal with them, how to breed to build up resistance.

Have you milked goats before or is this a new venture? You will have to have a male at some point in time to get them pregnant, so they can kid and then produce milk. If they are just going to be pets, then wethers would be better for you. I really think that you need to find a friend/mentor in the area that's "been there done that" to help you get started on it.
Have you considered electric netting for fencing to allow them to graze in the area 2? It is a good deterrent for dogs and coyotes etc..... the electric shock will keep alot of predators away especially if it is only a "day pen".