Wow, Anyone Have Advice?

[Roll farms]

KMA, I meant you no hostility, sorry if you took it that way. I'm just a bit (too) passionate about breeding / pet overpopulation / etc.

I was pointing out to RTG / CG that these wouldn't be working LGD pups, in the sense that they are bonded to livestock from birth. That wasn't a slight toward you, just a clarification.

And pointing out to you in case you hadn't thought of it, that no matter how hard we try, even buyers w/ the best intentions (of any breed) can have life changes where dogs get sold / rehomed / lost in the shuffle. I'd imagine there are a few Sarps in rescues, but since they're rare, the shelters have no idea what they have...

Our pup that went to the pound was listed as a "Pyr / Wolf cross" I saw his pic on the shelter's site, went to see if he was who I thought he was (he was), and found him a new pet home.

 

[watchdogps]

Truely the only main reason I want to breed them is because of how rare the breed is, and my dogs are like children to me I would love to see the puppies they would produce. Hopefully I can get all that information this weekend!

There are some other Sar owners and breeders in the US. Try getting on the LGD-L email list and asking.
I agree with the above, CoKC papers are garbage. My friend registered her cat as a standard poodle. I'm not kidding, they don't require pics or proof. In fact, CoKC is a big red flag to me that the "breeders" are substandard (sorry, I dont mean to insult you, I knw this is your first time).

If you want to breed them because the breed is rare, dont risk polluting the few purebreds we have by breeding a possible mix. Spay her and get a 100% certain purebred.

Wanting to see what they produce is a nice thought, but do you have 8-10 buyers lined up and ready to hand you deposits? Do you hav the ability to keep 8 puppies if they don't sell? Sars are rare, so rare no one goes looking for one because they have never heard of them.
I breed Anatolians, and I will tell you that LGDs arent selling like hotcakes right now. I know breeders who have been trying to sell pups for half what they usualyl sell for and no bites. Lots of farms have closed down and the demand isnt what it was, as well as no one has $$ to shell out.
In addition, when you start looking for homes, you will reject about half the callers (at least), half of the ones you dont reject wont call back, and of the few left, half of those might get a pup.

 

[foxywench]

also adding to that...
remember your going to want to be puting quite a chunk of change into health testing any dog your planning on breeding, at the very least OFA testing...so its not something i would go about lightly, "rare breed" or not.

as a side note, the dna tests can be a joke, ive seen results come back on PUREBRED known linagae dogs with all kidns of crazy things, and results on mixed breeds commng back just as crazy...no serious sarpie fanatic (and lets face it folks who know what sarpies are are few and far between as it is...) is going to trust Continental papers and a "dna" test...
given the breed id want to see more than "wonderfull pets" as the parents description.

im not anti potential mixed breed...
i am however anti breeding for the sake of it...if your going to breed you should have a clear goal in mind as to wha tyour trying to produce...
if you want to produce excelent house pets, then CGC testing, mabe even trying to get TDI's on the parents along with health certs
trying to market them as wonderful family protectors...id want to see at least some kind of personal protection training on them
trying to sell them as livestock dogs id want them to come from dogs who do work full time as livestock guardians...

so figure out WHAT your breeding for and prove those parents worthy beyond "there great pets"

hope that makes sense.

 

[watchdogps]

also adding to that...
remember your going to want to be puting quite a chunk of change into health testing any dog your planning on breeding, at the very least OFA testing...so its not something i would go about lightly, "rare breed" or not.

as a side note, the dna tests can be a joke, ive seen results come back on PUREBRED known linagae dogs with all kidns of crazy things, and results on mixed breeds commng back just as crazy...no serious sarpie fanatic (and lets face it folks who know what sarpies are are few and far between as it is...) is going to trust Continental papers and a "dna" test...
given the breed id want to see more than "wonderfull pets" as the parents description.

im not anti potential mixed breed...
i am however anti breeding for the sake of it...if your going to breed you should have a clear goal in mind as to wha tyour trying to produce...
if you want to produce excelent house pets, then CGC testing, mabe even trying to get TDI's on the parents along with health certs
trying to market them as wonderful family protectors...id want to see at least some kind of personal protection training on them
trying to sell them as livestock dogs id want them to come from dogs who do work full time as livestock guardians...

so figure out WHAT your breeding for and prove those parents worthy beyond "there great pets"

hope that makes sense.

Yep, I haven't bred my oldest girl yet because I havent had $350 to drop on her OFAs. I KNOW her lineage, I bred her myself and have no doubt at all that she is anything but a good or excellent, but I wont do it without. Gotta get that done, she is 4 yrs old and I so want her puppies!
Do NOT fool yourself into thinking b/c sars are a rare breed that they dont have health probs. Most breeders of LGDs overseas in working environments do not health check. The "survival of the fittest" doesnt exactly apply either, as by the time many problems shw up, the dog has already bred litters. I know of more imported LGD dogs WITH health problems than without. Importers know they can send us the garbage, because we cant return to sender back to Europe.

 

[redtailgal]

x

 

[bluemini]

Kaleighmae:
No hostilites here, just open discussion!


I may get slammed for saying this, but I'm not too "into" all the health testing that goes on today. Yes, it is a needed thing in many breed, but not in all breeds. And I must point out, that it is/was poor breeding to begin with that brought on the health problems to begin with. I do believe in sound breeding of all breeds.

I raised Dobermans, many were sold as private owned Police K9, bonds dogs, service dogs, and most were pet quality dogs. All my dogs were sold originaly on a limited registry, and most with a spay neuter contract. Some dogs had the option of a full registry at maturity, if they passed muster with my vet (non-carrier of VWD, no heartworms, fit to bred etc) AND passed my muster (proper conformation, disposition and intelligence).

I did not show, and non oc my dogs were champions. They were excellent police dogs, narcotic dogs, service dogs etc.

I chose my bitches and studs carefully and decided the registy status of pups carefully. I didnt spend a fortune on health testing, I chose dogs from lines that lived long lives, and as a result my pups did and are living long lives.

ALl that being said, ANY dog that is considered a rare breed MUST be carefully bred. The gene pool of a rare breed is so small, that with ANY breeding, there is an increased risk of exacerbating poor qualities and or health problems. For example, a breed may be known to have a particular heart defect in the breeding pool. The bitch and stud may be perfectly healthy not showing any signs of the problem. So one would think that they could breed together to produce more pups without the problem. However, if both dogs had a parent that had the defect or carried the gene, then roughly half of the pups would have the defect.

Things to consider..........do the dogs complement each other in both personality and conformation? Will the breeding result in pups that are an improvement over the parents?

Honestly, there are some things that would concern me. The CoKC registry for one. The CoKC registry on a RARE breed, is major to me. So many people will get a CoKc registry for a "rare" breed just for "looks".

The other thing that is getting me here is that the stud was passed thru so many owners. Why is that? A purebred rarebreed is an expensive animal, one that is normaly held on to. To be passed from owner to owner, tells me that either the dog is NOT pure, or if it is pure, there is a problem that makes people want to "get rid of it". Neither of those makes for sound breeding.

Good owners are going to want to know the background (like YOU want to know), and most people who are researching enough to ask these questions are not going to spend much on a pup with this sort of geneological history.

You will end up either selling pups at a very low cost (knowledgable good owners will move on rather than spend much), and having to screen owners very harshly because that low price will bring in some shady people. OR you can charge too much and hope for a sucker.....and these folks dont make good owners either.

Run an ad BEFORE you breed, advertise a potential breeding, and offer a discount to those who go on the waiting list now. Hopefully this will give you idea of how the market is in your area and it will give you extra time to find the right owners.

 

[watchdogps]

Anyway, to get ready for that I sent in my males UKC paperwork and it got approved. Well I took my female to the vet again to get her all checked out. The vet told me he did not think she had great pyr in her.

I also wanted to point out that vets in general don't know squat about breeds. Unless the vet has taken a serious special interest in studying LGDs and rare breeds, chnaces are good he wouldnt know a sar if it bit him. I have seen vets make the most preposterous guesses on breeds, or tell people their dogs were or were not pure and be very wrong. Vets know guts, not conformation.

 

[carolinagirl]

Anyway, to get ready for that I sent in my males UKC paperwork and it got approved. Well I took my female to the vet again to get her all checked out. The vet told me he did not think she had great pyr in her.

I also wanted to point out that vets in general don't know squat about breeds. Unless the vet has taken a serious special interest in studying LGDs and rare breeds, chnaces are good he wouldnt know a sar if it bit him. I have seen vets make the most preposterous guesses on breeds, or tell people their dogs were or were not pure and be very wrong. Vets know guts, not conformation.

isn't that the truth! My friend's vet just told her that her chihuahua is part dachund because his back is long. Never mind that every other feature this dog has is pure chihuahua! He's just a bad example of the breed!

 

[Ms. Research]

Anyway, to get ready for that I sent in my males UKC paperwork and it got approved. Well I took my female to the vet again to get her all checked out. The vet told me he did not think she had great pyr in her.

I also wanted to point out that vets in general don't know squat about breeds. Unless the vet has taken a serious special interest in studying LGDs and rare breeds, chnaces are good he wouldnt know a sar if it bit him. I have seen vets make the most preposterous guesses on breeds, or tell people their dogs were or were not pure and be very wrong. Vets know guts, not conformation.

isn't that the truth! My friend's vet just told her that her chihuahua is part dachund because his back is long. Never mind that every other feature this dog has is pure chihuahua! He's just a bad example of the breed!

Definitely a fact. Veternarian college does not teach breed, only structure and anatomy. DH went through that in the late 70's with his Kuvacz. When he moved back to New Jersey he had to do extensive research on vets in the area to find one that would even look at Marque. They had no idea what a Kuvacz, nor its disposition. But DH found one and Dr. Chase was excellent with both Marque and Ice. You really have to look for a vet who is breed specific.

 

[KaleighMaeA]

Kaleighmae:
No hostilites here, just open discussion!


I may get slammed for saying this, but I'm not too "into" all the health testing that goes on today. Yes, it is a needed thing in many breed, but not in all breeds. And I must point out, that it is/was poor breeding to begin with that brought on the health problems to begin with. I do believe in sound breeding of all breeds.

I raised Dobermans, many were sold as private owned Police K9, bonds dogs, service dogs, and most were pet quality dogs. All my dogs were sold originaly on a limited registry, and most with a spay neuter contract. Some dogs had the option of a full registry at maturity, if they passed muster with my vet (non-carrier of VWD, no heartworms, fit to bred etc) AND passed my muster (proper conformation, disposition and intelligence).

I did not show, and non oc my dogs were champions. They were excellent police dogs, narcotic dogs, service dogs etc.

I chose my bitches and studs carefully and decided the registy status of pups carefully. I didnt spend a fortune on health testing, I chose dogs from lines that lived long lives, and as a result my pups did and are living long lives.

ALl that being said, ANY dog that is considered a rare breed MUST be carefully bred. The gene pool of a rare breed is so small, that with ANY breeding, there is an increased risk of exacerbating poor qualities and or health problems. For example, a breed may be known to have a particular heart defect in the breeding pool. The bitch and stud may be perfectly healthy not showing any signs of the problem. So one would think that they could breed together to produce more pups without the problem. However, if both dogs had a parent that had the defect or carried the gene, then roughly half of the pups would have the defect.

Things to consider..........do the dogs complement each other in both personality and conformation? Will the breeding result in pups that are an improvement over the parents?

Honestly, there are some things that would concern me. The CoKC registry for one. The CoKC registry on a RARE breed, is major to me. So many people will get a CoKc registry for a "rare" breed just for "looks".

The other thing that is getting me here is that the stud was passed thru so many owners. Why is that? A purebred rarebreed is an expensive animal, one that is normaly held on to. To be passed from owner to owner, tells me that either the dog is NOT pure, or if it is pure, there is a problem that makes people want to "get rid of it". Neither of those makes for sound breeding.

Good owners are going to want to know the background (like YOU want to know), and most people who are researching enough to ask these questions are not going to spend much on a pup with this sort of geneological history.

You will end up either selling pups at a very low cost (knowledgable good owners will move on rather than spend much), and having to screen owners very harshly because that low price will bring in some shady people. OR you can charge too much and hope for a sucker.....and these folks dont make good owners either.

Run an ad BEFORE you breed, advertise a potential breeding, and offer a discount to those who go on the waiting list now. Hopefully this will give you idea of how the market is in your area and it will give you extra time to find the right owners.

Thank you for the advise. I actually have been running ads. I have a couple of updates on the situation which makes me feel much better about it. One, I have my male Yugo's UKC paperwork in hand. Two, I THINK (fingers crossed!!!) after a lot of detective work I have found the original parents of my female! I am waiting on an e-mail back from the original breeder to confirm, and if so her parents are UKC registered which would be a huge relief for me. Hopefully I will know something for certain soon.

As for the female being passed from owner to owner yes it's strange for that to happen and would normally throw up a red flag. However, the reason for it was due to a previous owners health issue causing him to lose his farm. It was really just a serious of unfortunate events, which I would gladly describe to someone wanting a puppy.

You bring up a good point about the health along the line. The great thing is with my male he came from a very well respected breeder in the united states, and I have had him examined by a local vet as well. I do wish I could find a vet familiar with the breed though. My normal vet isn't, so I thought I'd call around and find one who was. Literally 17 calls later I gave up and he went back to the usual vet. That part of things is slightly discouraging, but at least the effort was made?

The comment about personality complementing was a great point. I think so mainly because my male is much more aloof than my female and wants to be with other animals. He'll come get attention occasionally from me, but he seems fairly indifferent to it most of the time. My female also does great with other animals, but she is much more social than my male. She wants some daily attention. I think their puppies would be good simply because hopefully they will fall somewhere in the middle

I guess at this point I'm just going to see how things turn out. The biggest thing I want to hear is from that breeder to see if my female was in fact from a litter of hers. If so I'll feel much better. I am not going to advertise anything about the female until I get that information back because I want to be as accurate as possible.