Your thoughts on herbal wormers

[cmjust0]

So what plan of action do I have? They will pick up worms and larvae and all that crap I know but how do I manage them. I don't want to constantly use chemical wormers. I want my goats to be resilient and have constitutions to handle the wormload but I don't want to lose my whole herd either. Yes, I do have purebreds for the most part, Alpine, except the three that I mentioned earlier that were my first goats and hence mutts for sure but highly strong hardy goats.

Keep them off the grass. Whether that means planting stands of weeds or effectively drylotting your goats and feeding hay all year -- whatever -- barberpole worms require grass to complete their life cycle, so if you can keep your goats off grass, you can effectively stop the life cycle.

I have one other plan, but all the so-called "experts" tell me it won't work.. I think they're wrong -- scratch that, I *know* they're wrong -- but I've not tested it yet, and I won't know until next summer how well it works...or doesn't work, depending.

So...for now...keeping them off the grass is the best I can do ya.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

I'd recommend rotating pastures/paddocks, stop being afraid to use chemical dewormers if you want your goats to live, but start making note of which goats are always worse off. Which do poorly? Which seem to be more resistant? Cull the poorly ones and keep the ones who are more resistant.

 

[cmjust0]

I'd recommend rotating pastures/paddocks, stop being afraid to use chemical dewormers if you want your goats to live, but start making note of which goats are always worse off. Which do poorly? Which seem to be more resistant? Cull the poorly ones and keep the ones who are more resistant.

Rotating pastures is a waste of time, in my opinion. That's the case around here, anyway.. The only thing resting a pasture can do for ya is allow the grass to get taller again, which can help keep the goat's nose off the ground -- and that *is* a good thing... That much, I'll concede..

However, the problem is that the only time it's beneficial to rotate is during the summer when pastures are really becoming contaminated, but that's also usually when pastures usually aren't really growing. So, if you 'rotate' away from a pasture and wait for it to grow back up to a reasonable height, you'll pretty much be waiting until Spring...which means you've effectively *retired* that pasture for the year.

Obviously, not most folks' idea of what 'rotation' is all about.

In fact, a certain "internet celebrity" type producer with lots of articles on what to do (many of which are poster children for what NOT to do) on her website recommends resting pastures for 9 weeks because the life cycle of a barberpole worm is only 3 weeks.

:/

The reason that's stupid is because 3 weeks is the life cycle of a barberpole *from the time it's consumed as larvae until it becomes an adult capable of producing eggs.* That's fact, and it's not even a particularly helpful fact.. Another FACT is that barberpole larvae can live *far* longer than 9 weeks on pasture during the summer in temperate climates. So all she's really recommending is that you give all those larvae ample opportunity to hatch out, slither up the grass to position themselves perfectly, and wait...then turn the herd loose on them again.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Winter -- The last of the adult worms are dying off naturally and any new larvae being picked up are remaining dormant in the host as they wait for Spring. Barberpole larvae aren't good at overwintering on pasture, so the vast majority of larvae on pasture die off in winter. Pastures aren't necessarily "clean" come Spring, but they're actually pretty close. The vast, vast, vast, VAST majority of barberpoles which *will* cause you difficulty *next summer* are already inside your goats as dormant larvae.

Might it be a good idea to worm the heck out of the entire herd during the winter then, regardless of the fecals (because they aren't shedding eggs) or FAMACHA (because the larvae are dormant?) We've been doing fecals and worming as needed since late summer, but it almost sounds like I'd be missing an opportunity to knock out barberpoles if I continued to worm as needed in Winter. We don't have pasture, just woodland browse and drylots.

 

[rebelINny]

We do pasture/forage for our goats and hay during winter. We rotate as much as possible with five 60ft. portable electric fences. We do have alot of trees/brush that they always knock out first then they graze. I guess I should take them away from the pasture after they knock out the trees and brush and let the cows have the grass. May try that next year. Until them here come the chemicals. I just wormed five of my 5-8 month kids and used up all the ivomec (wasn't much left). My mother in law is picking up more from TSC when she is in town. Hoping to dose up the rest tomorrow. Thanks for the advice cmjust0. I would go crazy without goat support groups like this!!!This job is stressful!!

 

[aggieterpkatie]

So, if you 'rotate' away from a pasture and wait for it to grow back up to a reasonable height, you'll pretty much be waiting until Spring...which means you've effectively *retired* that pasture for the year.

Obviously, not most folks' idea of what 'rotation' is all about.

Well then they've got the whole idea wrong. Rotating pastures doesn't mean keep them off for a certain number of days. Rotating pastures means keeping them off until the grass has grown back to a sufficient height. If that means the rest of the year, so be it. The main idea of rotating pastures is for the health of the pasture. It's a secondary benefit that it provides better forage for the animals. Rotating, while not totally eliminating parasites from the cycle, means that animals generally won't be forced to graze near manure piles and won't be overstocked on one area (that's the whole idea, anyways). And if Rebel could totally keep the goats off an area for several months then switch them back to it, it'd greatly help I bet.

 

[cmjust0]

Winter -- The last of the adult worms are dying off naturally and any new larvae being picked up are remaining dormant in the host as they wait for Spring. Barberpole larvae aren't good at overwintering on pasture, so the vast majority of larvae on pasture die off in winter. Pastures aren't necessarily "clean" come Spring, but they're actually pretty close. The vast, vast, vast, VAST majority of barberpoles which *will* cause you difficulty *next summer* are already inside your goats as dormant larvae.

Might it be a good idea to worm the heck out of the entire herd during the winter then, regardless of the fecals (because they aren't shedding eggs) or FAMACHA (because the larvae are dormant?) We've been doing fecals and worming as needed since late summer, but it almost sounds like I'd be missing an opportunity to knock out barberpoles if I continued to worm as needed in Winter. We don't have pasture, just woodland browse and drylots.

HMMMMMM.. YEAH... SEEMS THAT WAY, HUH?



That may or may not be the very idea I've run past more than a few so-called 'experts,' only to be told it probably won't work...but not *why* it won't work...and then encouraged to try it and get back to them with my results.

Problem is, most dewormers that will actually kill hypobiotic barberpoles have been used to the point of near-uselessness, so the trick is to find something that still works..

I think I found one, but it's not technically legal here -- but it *is* here, if you know where to look -- and if you O/D it, they go blind.

Haven't quite made my mind up yet, but I'm certainly keen on avoiding this past summers white-eyed worries.. :/

 

[cmjust0]

So, if you 'rotate' away from a pasture and wait for it to grow back up to a reasonable height, you'll pretty much be waiting until Spring...which means you've effectively *retired* that pasture for the year.

Obviously, not most folks' idea of what 'rotation' is all about.

Well then they've got the whole idea wrong. Rotating pastures doesn't mean keep them off for a certain number of days. Rotating pastures means keeping them off until the grass has grown back to a sufficient height. If that means the rest of the year, so be it. The main idea of rotating pastures is for the health of the pasture. It's a secondary benefit that it provides better forage for the animals. Rotating, while not totally eliminating parasites from the cycle, means that animals generally won't be forced to graze near manure piles and won't be overstocked on one area (that's the whole idea, anyways). And if Rebel could totally keep the goats off an area for several months then switch them back to it, it'd greatly help I bet.

If you have enough pasture to rest several sections for an entire year, chances are that you're not stocked at a heavy enough rate to have severe parasite problems anyway...at which point rotation becomes *entirely* about pasture management.

Perhaps I should have qualified my "rotating pastures is a waste of time" statement with "in terms of parasite management."

 

[Ariel301]

So what plan of action do I have? They will pick up worms and larvae and all that crap I know but how do I manage them. I don't want to constantly use chemical wormers. I want my goats to be resilient and have constitutions to handle the wormload but I don't want to lose my whole herd either. Yes, I do have purebreds for the most part, Alpine, except the three that I mentioned earlier that were my first goats and hence mutts for sure but highly strong hardy goats.

Keep them off the grass. Whether that means planting stands of weeds or effectively drylotting your goats and feeding hay all year -- whatever -- barberpole worms require grass to complete their life cycle, so if you can keep your goats off grass, you can effectively stop the life cycle.

I have one other plan, but all the so-called "experts" tell me it won't work.. I think they're wrong -- scratch that, I *know* they're wrong -- but I've not tested it yet, and I won't know until next summer how well it works...or doesn't work, depending.

So...for now...keeping them off the grass is the best I can do ya.

Interesting. With horses, I was always taught that they would have a lower wormload on pasture than in a dry lot where the manure could build up more. You're saying it's the opposite with goats, that keeping them in a drylot on hay reduces the load, at least with barberpole? (As long as they're not eating their hay off the ground, obviously that's a problem)

 

[Beekissed]

Sheep are naturally adapted to grazing which almost certainly makes them more parasite resistant than goats. Despite how similar goats and sheep seem to be, it really is an applesranges comparison.

I would say, if you asked any serious sheep farmer, he would beg to differ with you. Especially in the south. They seem to have quite a problem with barber pole worms there as well.

Maybe, since sheep have been more marketable than goats, until recent years, more effort has been put into developing genetics that are more parasite resistant, rather than sheep just being naturally so.

If I were all that serious about raising goats, that would be my first goal....culling and breeding towards this problem. Goats will never be truly a cost efficient stock animal until this problem is resolved and it certainly won't be solved by throwing more chemicals at it. It merely develops a lovely strain of super parasites that require more and harsher chemical intervention.

Apparently the sheep guys are on a learning curve and the goat folks need to hop on the train.