Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) Vaccine for goats

[trestlecreek]

Don't give CL vaccines to goats. There is not one that is recommended yet. *hold your horses on this one!*
We don't want to cross species specific diseases/antibodies.

 

[crazygoatlady]

I won't give it to my goats--I don't want to have a positive, even if it is due to the vaccine-- and I won't buy a goat that has been given the vaccine. JMO

 

[cmjust0]

Don't give CL vaccines to goats. There is not one that is recommended yet. *hold your horses on this one!*
We don't want to cross species specific diseases/antibodies.

CL isn't species specific...it can affect both sheep and goats.

Actually, it can also occasionally infect horses, cattle, camelids, water buffalo, wild ruminants, primates, pigs, and fowl, according to Merck.

I'm checking around locally for Case-Bac, and if I can't find it, I'll be ordering from Jeffers this week. Like someone else said, I'd rather have a false positive than a real incident or outbreak. There are just too many CL infested meat goat herds around here for me to be able too keep my animals 100% safe with biosecurity alone..

Afterall, what's to keep a whitetail from tromping around in CL at one infected farm and then carrying it to my place? Nothing.....can't exactly expect a whitetail to bleach its hooves at the gate, ya know?

 

[cmjust0]

And, as for those false positives....

What I've read so far indicates that a goat might have a positive titre for CL for a short period of time after the vaccination, but that it will go back to negative relatively quickly.

I've yet to hear of a goat that tests positive forever after getting the Case-Bac vaccine..

 

[broke down ranch]

Don't give CL vaccines to goats. There is not one that is recommended yet. *hold your horses on this one!*
We don't want to cross species specific diseases/antibodies.

CL isn't species specific...it can affect both sheep and goats.

Actually, it can also occasionally infect horses, cattle, camelids, water buffalo, wild ruminants, primates, pigs, and fowl, according to Merck.

I'm checking around locally for Case-Bac, and if I can't find it, I'll be ordering from Jeffers this week. Like someone else said, I'd rather have a false positive than a real incident or outbreak. There are just too many CL infested meat goat herds around here for me to be able too keep my animals 100% safe with biosecurity alone..

Afterall, what's to keep a whitetail from tromping around in CL at one infected farm and then carrying it to my place? Nothing.....can't exactly expect a whitetail to bleach its hooves at the gate, ya know?

Exactly. I'd rather have a false positive than a "positive" positive.....

ETA: there are a lot of products that aren't recommended or are used off-label for our goats. The biggest one I can think of is ivermectin. If we all relied only on labels instead of someone's experience then we'd have some sickly animals indeed....

 

[trestlecreek]

CL actually does have species specificity and there are different strains. You can create more virulent strains by giving vaccines to animals that the vaccine has not been approved for.

You don't have to convince me of your own personal use. I just personally could not recommend it from my educational background and experience.

 

[cmjust0]

CL actually does have species specificity and there are different strains. You can create more virulent strains by giving vaccines to animals that the vaccine has not been approved for.

To my knowledge, there's no such thing as a "live" CL vaccine..

I'm not saying you're wrong here, but perhaps you can enlighten us as to how vaccination with a killed bacterin can give rise to even one live cell of the target bacteria within the vaccinated animal, let alone a more virulent strain of such..

Again...not saying it doesn't happen...just looking for info.

 

[trestlecreek]

When a goat is vaccinated with a vaccine that has NOT been proven for the species or strain of CL, the goat can contract a related strain and with the antibodies to the strain vaccinated for, these cells create a newer, different strain...the goat can then become virulent as the mutant has evolved.
Does not have to be a live vaccine for these to evolve.

Think about how the swine flu appeared?....it's a different situation, but the example shows us how much we yet have to learn.....

Diseases are smart. That is why drug trials HAVE to go on for specific strains and species.

Testing is not complete for the goat and CL. Scientists are still unsure of whether or not the strain is related to Johnes in goats.
I personally wouldn't touch that vaccine with a ten foot pole. IF and when they are done with trials and experiments is when I would be willing to consider it.

We're not talking about Ivomec possibly being toxic, we are talking about creating new diseases with this vaccine. Not something I want to do.

 

[cmjust0]

When a goat is vaccinated with a vaccine that has NOT been proven for the species or strain of CL, the goat can contract a related strain and with the antibodies to the strain vaccinated for, these cells create a newer, different strain...the goat can then become virulent as the mutant has evolved.
Does not have to be a live vaccine for these to evolve.

So...how exactly does a particular strain of bacteria plus an antibody to a different, but related, strain of bacteria give rise to a whole new strain of bacteria?

I don't see how that can happen..

Think about how the swine flu appeared?....it's a different situation, but the example shows us how much we yet have to learn.....

To my understanding, "swine flu" is the result of an antigenic shift, which is basically where a single host becomes infected with two or more different strains of a particuluar virus.. Inside the host, pieces of each of the different strains combine to create a strain that's similar, yet totally different from the strains that combined to create it..

Thing is, CL is caused by bacteria -- it's not viral. But even if it were viral, giving a vaccine that contained pieces of a different strain of a *killed* virus wouldn't allow for an antigenic shift, because there's no live virus.. And even if there was one live virus and several dead virii, it's not as though a new virus can be created with parts of a live virus and parts of a dead virus..

If that were the case, everyone who was vaccinated for a certain strain of influenza who then contracted a different strain would become a breeding ground for viral reassortment..

To my knowledge, it doesn't work that way...but I could be wrong! And, again, I'm not trying to wag my finger and say you're wrong here...I'm just trying to understand, because I truly don't get how what you're saying could be the case.

Diseases are smart. That is why drug trials HAVE to go on for specific strains and species.

Testing is not complete for the goat and CL. Scientists are still unsure of whether or not the strain is related to Johnes in goats. I personally wouldn't touch that vaccine with a ten foot pole. IF and when they are done with trials and experiments is when I would be willing to consider it.

We're not talking about Ivomec possibly being toxic, we are talking about creating new diseases with this vaccine. Not something I want to do.

Colorado Serum tested their sheep CL vaccine in goats...the same one they use for sheep.

The only reason it wasn't released was because it caused a higher incidence of injection-site reactions and associated lameness in goats. They believed the lameness would be unacceptable to the USDA, so they bailed..

SUPPOSEDLY they started working on one specifically for goats....but it never comes. Ever. If you'll notice, Colorado's CL goat vax is always right around the corner.. Yeah..right.

Anyway, it had nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccination, per se...it was just the lameness and injection-site reactions.

Colorado Serum posted as much on their website... You can check it out right here .. Here's the thing, though...you gotta read between the lines! At a glance, it seems like they're saying "Don't do it!"...but read it a few times.

To me, what they're saying is:

"We're legally obligated to discourage you from using Case-Bac in goats, but what we hear from the real world is a bit of post-injection lethargy, maybe an injection site reaction, and maybe some reduced feed intake and milk output. The USDA won't ok that, so we can't recommend it.

However, since we're the only CL vaccine commercially available in the US, and since we're already making great off-label money on goats, there's really no reason to work extra hard and spend a ton of money to get Case-Bac on-label for goats.. Soooo, tough titty, goat owners! You're stuck with off-label Case-Bac..



Oh, wait, that's right....you could always try the super-expensive autogenous vaccine...(snicker)...and, good luck with that! We don't think it works very well, but you could always roll the dice with your animals.. :/ "

But...maybe that's just how I'm reading it.. YMMV.

 

[trestlecreek]

If you keep learning about how vaccines work and how virus/bacteria grow and proliferate, drug testing protocols and trials, etc .....then you will understand what I am saying.

Not to sound mean or argumentative at all, I just can not continue to explain this ten different ways. There is too much base information needed to lead up to what I am saying.