Coat & Fur Conditioning.

[elevan]

Eleven; now you are just showing off. Seriously though, thanks for the info. it will help.

Problems intrigue me sometimes and for some reason this one caught my attention...

So how much selenium is in sunflower seeds, trying to get back on subject?

Sunflower seeds do have wonderful oils in them for hair coat quality. Is it possible to have too much selenium if it is in the feed, minerals, and sunflower seeds?

I think I still have an empty bag in the barn (planning on making some feed sack purses ) I'll check after while if no one chimes in...


I have to wonder...is the absorption of selenium different if it comes from a "natural" source such as directly from the plant material as opposed to being in "whole" mineral form such as that of what we supplement in feed and minerals...bears looking into...

Rough, dull, itchy, thin, and flaky coats can also be caused by copper deficiency or a parasite overload--either internal worms or lice on the skin. All the selenium and vitamins in the world won't fix it if that is the main problem, you have to correct that first and then supplementing might get some results.

Good point Ariel...and definitely bears looking into by the person who originally posed the question...

 

[elevan]

I found this chart

Mineral Amount
(per 1 lb) Mineral Amount
(per 1 lb)
Calcium 527.43 mg Copper 7.96 mg
Iron 30.82 mg Magnesium 1609.57 mg
Manganese 9.22 mg Phosphorus 3205.50 mg
Potassium 3132.75 mg Selenium 270.53 mcg
Sodium 13.64 mg Zinc 22.99 mg


from here

http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/black-oil-sunflower-seeds.html

Just need to convert 270.53 mcg per lb into MG to find out how much selenium they contain.

selenium in this case would be 0.27053 mg

Another calculator different conversion
http://www.convertunits.com/from/mcg/to/mg

 

[jcooke1]

Well shoot 20kids! Any ideas on how to make it less complicated? Not everyone can just call up a goat nutritionist...

I have no idea, I have a BS in animals science and a minor in chemistry, with very good math skills and it would not be easy for me to figure it all out. I have given it a passing thought every know and then, that is why i have noticed my feed bag reading 80ppm, and other things reading percentages, and yet other things reading mg per lb or per ounce, for the exact same mineral. You would have to beable to convert all of those things into mg, off the top of my head, I don't know how to do that, would take some research on my part, that is why I mentioned the nutritionalist, I am sure they have all that information stored up in their brains.

does any one on here know how to convert PPM(Part per million) to Mg per lb?

Well...that was easier than I thought! I just did a search and found a calculator!

Calculator for converting PPM to MG


And for those who like to do long form...

There are two parts to this. In water, at low concentrations, the approximation 1ppm = 1 mg/L holds up pretty good because the density of the solution is approximately 1 g/mL or 1 kg/L If you start getting in the range greater than 1000 mg/L, this starts breaking down. Always acknowledge when you use the approximation.

If you want the true conversion you have to measure the density of the water. Remember 1 ppm = 1 mg/kg, so

1 mg/kg X kg/L (the density) = mg/L

I swear, having goats is like a 24/7 chemistry class. You have to make sure that your cal. and phos. levels are 2:1; balance the PH in their urine; add vitamins here or minerals there; give supplement to increase bacteria in their rumen. Then being a new goat owner there really is no black and white answers to anything because everyone has their own opinion and what works for them, so basically you read conflicting information all day long and have to piece everything together to find out what is going to work for you. Ugh! But then you really have no clue where to start. Geesh, and my boyfriend didn't want me to get a horse because he thought it would be to much work... boy was he wrong, I bet he regrets it now horses are not more work they are just more expensive. Lol!

I am sure this is not news to any of you and I am sure all of you had to learn from the ground up, but I have had many, many different types of animals and none of them have been this challenging to provide proper care to.

Ok I am done venting now...

 

[elevan]

I swear, having goats is like a 24/7 chemistry class. You have to make sure that your cal. and phos. levels are 2:1; balance the PH in their urine; add vitamins here or minerals there; give supplement to increase bacteria in their rumen. Then being a new goat owner there really is no black and white answers to anything because everyone has their own opinion and what works for them, so basically you read conflicting information all day long and have to piece everything together to find out what is going to work for you. Ugh! But then you really have no clue where to start. Geesh, and my boyfriend didn't want me to get a horse because he thought it would be to much work... boy was he wrong, I bet he regrets it now horses are not more work they are just more expensive. Lol!

I am sure this is not news to any of you and I am sure all of you had to learn from the ground up, but I have had many, many different types of animals and none of them have been this challenging to provide proper care to.

Ok I am done venting now...

You're reading a post that goes a little bit beyond beginner goating.

Don't bang your head against the wall to hard, you might damage the wall!

Most bagged feed specifically made for goats are gonna give you the correct Ca to Ph ratio. Minerals can be bought specifically for goats.
Anything else is really as needed or dependent upon what the specific goat owner wants to accomplish.

Goats are definitely complicated sometimes but I love them!

As to the conflicting information...different areas have different problems due to soil type and worm resistance. You also have herd owners who prefer certain meds over others and certain methods over others. Read through all advice, figure out what makes the most sense to you and give it a go. You're gonna make mistakes and you're gonna learn from them...it's just the way it goes.

 

[PJisaMom]

I swear, having goats is like a 24/7 chemistry class. You have to make sure that your cal. and phos. levels are 2:1; balance the PH in their urine; add vitamins here or minerals there; give supplement to increase bacteria in their rumen. Then being a new goat owner there really is no black and white answers to anything because everyone has their own opinion and what works for them, so basically you read conflicting information all day long and have to piece everything together to find out what is going to work for you. Ugh! But then you really have no clue where to start. Geesh, and my boyfriend didn't want me to get a horse because he thought it would be to much work... boy was he wrong, I bet he regrets it now horses are not more work they are just more expensive. Lol!

I am sure this is not news to any of you and I am sure all of you had to learn from the ground up, but I have had many, many different types of animals and none of them have been this challenging to provide proper care to.

Ok I am done venting now...

I hear you... LOUD and CLEAR!

Yes, everyone has their own way of doing things... and when I started out about a year ago and I read all the same things you are reading now, I thought to myself "HOW WILL I KEEP THEM ALIVE???"

Here to say, I haven't killed one... yet. (It WILL happen... because they all die at some point for some reason or another... )

Here are all the things I do/have done "WRONG":

I grain my wethers. There. I said it. (I do it simply because they are CAE positive skinny little creatures who needed the extra for all that "conditioning" everyone speaks of). I use Noble Goat (medicated) because someone else said they used it and like it (and it had AC in it). I also give them alfalfa pellets. Lots of alfalfa pellets. Apparently this is wrong. But they are not dead. Take it for what it's worth. (I want to stop the grain because they are looking good these days and have ample access to fresh pasture...)

*and please note that I freely admit to having CAE positive creatures... they still love me and I can give them a great life... it wasn't my choice, but when you love something and you find out after the fact they have CAE... oh well! Their sister was also CAE positive and had a positive CL test result so we sent her live on another farm that didn't mind her special "attributes"... I can do CAE, CL was more than I was ready to deal with, and with my daughter's health issues, didn't want to risk any possible human transmission... this is all trial by fire!*

I used to worry myself sick about UC... so I make sure they get plenty of fresh water (which means I am lugging 5 gallon pails of warm water twice a day all winter). I have AC on hand and ready to go at a moments notice. Will occasionally sprinkle some on the feed FOR THE BOYS (I have 3 does now, too, but will get to the injustices I have done to them in a bit.)

I fed RED minerals to them! *gasp* Seriously, they still lived. Something about chelated this and oxide that... so i went from Golden Blend from Hoeggers to Cargill's Right Now Onyx (for cattle). They eat it as though they are dying. They LOVE it. And it's not red... it's, well, Onyx.

I fed alfalfa hay exclusively for the first 8 months. (Some of it was really crappy alfalfa with some other weed growing in it... I think it hurt my nutrition over the long run, but we have much better alfalfa now and they think it's CANDY.) I have only recently gotten some 60%grass/%40 alfalfa -- 2nd and 3rd cut. They hate it and won't eat anything but the alfalfa ends out of it. The rest goes to waste. Because I have the three Nigerian Dwarf does now, I CANNOT separate hay... they all live together. Very hard to keep free access to hay available to only certain goats, and all the talking to and training in the world hasn't helped them understand what they should and should not be eating. Dumb goats. Alfalfa happens to be the cheapest type of hay around me, and the easiest to get (other than grass). Now, I have read that alfalfa hay is "slowly killing your does" and that while lactating, the does should get it, but lay off during late gestation lest you bring about milk fever.... Who knows??? I have no plans to go and buy any designer hay. Not. Going. To. Happen. So...? Well... I feed them alfalfa, grass they won't eat, grain and pasture. And they aren't dead...

Which brings me to the girls... the yearlings are getting Noble goat, too and some alfalfa pellets. Why? Because I felt bad for them. Everyone else got to eat. Why not them, too? They get a tiny bit. They are filled out, but skinnier than when they were nursing. (They were BUTTERBALLS when I got them in October at 6 months old.)

I am nearly done graining the little boys and girls... they are all a year old this month.

Now, Momma goat... she's getting ADM Goat Power Meat Goat something or other (non-medicated). Why? Because someone said it was good. There you go. She's not overly fond of it, but some days inhales it. She also gets a bit of alfalfa pellets, sometimes a bit of Black Oil Sunflower Seeds, and sometimes a bit of Calf Manna. Why? Because I though she was really skinny right before she got pregnant. So I was trying to beef her up a bit. Now I'm reading that I should be graining the pregnant doe (due June 24thish), but BE CAREFUL, not too much! Not too little! No alfalfa... YES alfalfa...
You get the point. But guess what... She's *not* dead...

Here's something I've done "right":

Found a sick wether with a bloaty face and very weak. Didn't know what was wrong with him... panicked, pm'd a goat expert on here, and hit him with the book... it worked. I even had to put on the big girl pants and give multiple injections over the course of several days. Guess what? He *did* live. Miracle, right? I certainly think so.

My point is this... don't get caught up on the specific logistics and DO NOT FEEL DUMB asking questions (like I have a tendency to feel). We are all learning... go with your gut, and if you ask a question and get a response you don't agree with, then don't do it... it's your goat. The advice given here may seem like overkill, but doing too little is often detrimental to the goat. Sure, some of it is unpleasant, but even more unpleasant is a dead goat. BUT, know that you are interacting with some of the most knowledgeable and caring goat people out there... we all have our ways, but start with the basics, have a few things on hand that are *hard* to get in an emergent situation (like DiMethox and at least two types of basic antibiotics, including syringes and needles -- and YES, you can manage an 18 gauge... I promise), and have fun.

Hang in there!

 

[sunfisher]

PJisamom, thank you! you should post that for all newbies..I sometimes wonder how will i ever learn everything I need to know?! I have found the people on here to be very caring and very helpful..

 

[PJisaMom]

PJisamom, thank you! you should post that for all newbies..I sometimes wonder how will i ever learn everything I need to know?! I have found the people on here to be very caring and very helpful..

Thanks!

Feel free to post it anywhere you want...

 

[jcooke1]

I swear, having goats is like a 24/7 chemistry class. You have to make sure that your cal. and phos. levels are 2:1; balance the PH in their urine; add vitamins here or minerals there; give supplement to increase bacteria in their rumen. Then being a new goat owner there really is no black and white answers to anything because everyone has their own opinion and what works for them, so basically you read conflicting information all day long and have to piece everything together to find out what is going to work for you. Ugh! But then you really have no clue where to start. Geesh, and my boyfriend didn't want me to get a horse because he thought it would be to much work... boy was he wrong, I bet he regrets it now horses are not more work they are just more expensive. Lol!

I am sure this is not news to any of you and I am sure all of you had to learn from the ground up, but I have had many, many different types of animals and none of them have been this challenging to provide proper care to.

Ok I am done venting now...

I hear you... LOUD and CLEAR!

Yes, everyone has their own way of doing things... and when I started out about a year ago and I read all the same things you are reading now, I thought to myself "HOW WILL I KEEP THEM ALIVE???"

Here to say, I haven't killed one... yet. (It WILL happen... because they all die at some point for some reason or another... )

Here are all the things I do/have done "WRONG":

I grain my wethers. There. I said it. (I do it simply because they are CAE positive skinny little creatures who needed the extra for all that "conditioning" everyone speaks of). I use Noble Goat (medicated) because someone else said they used it and like it (and it had AC in it). I also give them alfalfa pellets. Lots of alfalfa pellets. Apparently this is wrong. But they are not dead. Take it for what it's worth. (I want to stop the grain because they are looking good these days and have ample access to fresh pasture...)

*and please note that I freely admit to having CAE positive creatures... they still love me and I can give them a great life... it wasn't my choice, but when you love something and you find out after the fact they have CAE... oh well! Their sister was also CAE positive and had a positive CL test result so we sent her live on another farm that didn't mind her special "attributes"... I can do CAE, CL was more than I was ready to deal with, and with my daughter's health issues, didn't want to risk any possible human transmission... this is all trial by fire!*

I used to worry myself sick about UC... so I make sure they get plenty of fresh water (which means I am lugging 5 gallon pails of warm water twice a day all winter). I have AC on hand and ready to go at a moments notice. Will occasionally sprinkle some on the feed FOR THE BOYS (I have 3 does now, too, but will get to the injustices I have done to them in a bit.)

I fed RED minerals to them! *gasp* Seriously, they still lived. Something about chelated this and oxide that... so i went from Golden Blend from Hoeggers to Cargill's Right Now Onyx (for cattle). They eat it as though they are dying. They LOVE it. And it's not red... it's, well, Onyx.

I fed alfalfa hay exclusively for the first 8 months. (Some of it was really crappy alfalfa with some other weed growing in it... I think it hurt my nutrition over the long run, but we have much better alfalfa now and they think it's CANDY.) I have only recently gotten some 60%grass/%40 alfalfa -- 2nd and 3rd cut. They hate it and won't eat anything but the alfalfa ends out of it. The rest goes to waste. Because I have the three Nigerian Dwarf does now, I CANNOT separate hay... they all live together. Very hard to keep free access to hay available to only certain goats, and all the talking to and training in the world hasn't helped them understand what they should and should not be eating. Dumb goats. Alfalfa happens to be the cheapest type of hay around me, and the easiest to get (other than grass). Now, I have read that alfalfa hay is "slowly killing your does" and that while lactating, the does should get it, but lay off during late gestation lest you bring about milk fever.... Who knows??? I have no plans to go and buy any designer hay. Not. Going. To. Happen. So...? Well... I feed them alfalfa, grass they won't eat, grain and pasture. And they aren't dead...

Which brings me to the girls... the yearlings are getting Noble goat, too and some alfalfa pellets. Why? Because I felt bad for them. Everyone else got to eat. Why not them, too? They get a tiny bit. They are filled out, but skinnier than when they were nursing. (They were BUTTERBALLS when I got them in October at 6 months old.)

I am nearly done graining the little boys and girls... they are all a year old this month.

Now, Momma goat... she's getting ADM Goat Power Meat Goat something or other (non-medicated). Why? Because someone said it was good. There you go. She's not overly fond of it, but some days inhales it. She also gets a bit of alfalfa pellets, sometimes a bit of Black Oil Sunflower Seeds, and sometimes a bit of Calf Manna. Why? Because I though she was really skinny right before she got pregnant. So I was trying to beef her up a bit. Now I'm reading that I should be graining the pregnant doe (due June 24thish), but BE CAREFUL, not too much! Not too little! No alfalfa... YES alfalfa...
You get the point. But guess what... She's *not* dead...

Here's something I've done "right":

Found a sick wether with a bloaty face and very weak. Didn't know what was wrong with him... panicked, pm'd a goat expert on here, and hit him with the book... it worked. I even had to put on the big girl pants and give multiple injections over the course of several days. Guess what? He *did* live. Miracle, right? I certainly think so.

My point is this... don't get caught up on the specific logistics and DO NOT FEEL DUMB asking questions (like I have a tendency to feel). We are all learning... go with your gut, and if you ask a question and get a response you don't agree with, then don't do it... it's your goat. The advice given here may seem like overkill, but doing too little is often detrimental to the goat. Sure, some of it is unpleasant, but even more unpleasant is a dead goat. BUT, know that you are interacting with some of the most knowledgeable and caring goat people out there... we all have our ways, but start with the basics, have a few things on hand that are *hard* to get in an emergent situation (like DiMethox and at least two types of basic antibiotics, including syringes and needles -- and YES, you can manage an 18 gauge... I promise), and have fun.

Hang in there!

That was great reading, it made me giggle all the way through and at the same time it put my overwhelming nerves at ease a little more with hands on information in newbie goat owners lingo. I have also been PMing a goat expert on here and they have given me a bunch of great information. Thank you for the wonderful insight.

 

[ksalvagno]

I think as far as black oil sunflower seeds, you really don't know where they were grown. If they were grown in selenium deficient soil, then they will not have much selenium in them. I don't even consider that my BOSS is a source of selenium since I have no idea where they are grown.

Each person has to figure out what works for their particular farm. What works for me may not work for the guy even down the street from me let alone across the country. Take information you read and figure out what works and doesn't work for you.

 

[elevan]

I think as far as black oil sunflower seeds, you really don't know where they were grown. If they were grown in selenium deficient soil, then they will not have much selenium in them. I don't even consider that my BOSS is a source of selenium since I have no idea where they are grown.

Each person has to figure out what works for their particular farm. What works for me may not work for the guy even down the street from me let alone across the country. Take information you read and figure out what works and doesn't work for you.