Coffee anyone ?

[Cecilia's-herd]

@Cecilia's-herd dont take offense. @farmerjan did not say your children are artificial, just the process for you to have them.

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry. Mama bear came out there for a second. Deep breaths.

Each of you has their own point of view.

And I would say both are valid. I’m sorry. I got a little defensive and angry.

I would much rather raise my own meat, know that my animals were treated well, had plenty of room and were able to live more of a natural life. It costs a lot more to raise my own, not to mention slaughter charges.

As would I. Cost is a huge factor. I can buy and raise ethically sourced meat but not have the ability or funds to go to a restaurant for example. I don’t have the funds to have my children in a hospital (in an emergency I will do all I can, I promise), or maybe buy new clothing every year.

 

[Baymule]

Whole industrial chickens go on sale for less than a dollar a pound. No way I could raise chicken that cheap. I’ve bought a lot of those on sale chickens before, budgeting to feed my family.

Pork chops go on sale for $1.88 per pound. Slaughter charges are $65 kill fee plus $1.15 per pound, hanging weight. I can’t raise pork for $1.88 per pound.

Poor people and most middle class people can’t afford to pay the price I have to charge for the meat I raise. Industrial meat feeds this country. Us as farmers may not like the methods, but it is needed.

 

[Cecilia's-herd]

Pork chops go on sale for $1.88 per pound. Slaughter charges are $65 kill fee plus $1.15 per pound, hanging weight. I can’t raise pork for $1.88 per pound.

I don’t eat pork but I have always wondered; can you slaughter and butcher them yourself? Why do we have to go through all these loopholes.

 

[Baymule]

I have slaughtered hogs myself. But raising for other people, home slaughter is risky. I will take responsibility for myself but not for selling to others. USDA for hogs.

That said, we home slaughtered Cornish Cross chickens, using the utmost cleanliness I could. Clorox is my friend. I cut and vacuum sealed the cuts to customers specifications. They knew it and were ok with it. Can’t find any processors for chicken anyway.

 

[farmerjan]

I did not call your children artificial.... I said you got pregnant by artificial means. Which you did, whether it was through an embryo transfer or by artificial insemination of your own eggs.... it was not an "all natural" conception. And I have friends that have gone through artificial means to get pregnant and I am glad that they got to experience being parents.
If you are saying that we have to consider the ethics of creating an animal that cannot breed naturally or live longer than a few years in comfort, then you need to really look at the ethics of any and all types of breeding and promoting any other forms of reproduction. There is a place for many different types of animals. As well as a place for different types of farming.
A normal life for the AVERAGE turkey is 4-5 years, regardless of what the "experts" have said is 10 years. If the BB ones only can live 2 years then that is fine. I never said that we should only consider BB or only consider heritage breeds. There is a place for many different breeds and ways to raise them. Maybe you are from a long time farm/ranch family. You are not the only one with farming heritage in your blood. And if they had that successful a past to enable you to be able to afford to do what you do then you should be thankful too. If you feel that you should not support the BB breeds or other things like that, it is your privilege. But you should not say that it is disgusting or immoral for someone to use the most modern technology available because you simply do not agree with it. You talk like "heritage breeds" are the better breeds..... they would not survive without breeders that also believe they are preferable. Yet they have been developed over the years from the basic wild turkey.... If you look at many of the turkey breeds, they have been "manipulated" as far as being bred for a purpose. Midget turkeys are considered a heritage breed now, on the list of endangered breeds... yet that particular breed was purposefully bred for the smaller "table bird"...... white for the purpose of cleaner picking of pin feathers.... so there is constant breeding for certain purposes.

Most heritage breeds are more suited for free range type situations. Will forage more in many circumstances. But believe me they are not the do all, end all. They also have their limitations. I am not one to say I prefer the current practices of commercial confinement raising of animals. But, there is something to be said for the protection of animals from predators too. I raised "free range" layers... provided 30-50 DOZEN eggs a week..... until I started dealing with the #@&#@ bald eagles here. I could not legally shoot them. I could not protect my flock from them and still have them free range. Financially I could not afford to put up fencing and run LGD's to keep the eagles out on rented land, because the return on the eggs could not justify it. I finally got out because I was just tired of fighting a losing battle. Once I get my place here fenced, to where I can have a dog for protection, then I will consider if it is worth the money to have more than enough hens for myself and to keep the various breeds I have at healthy breeding populations. I will be fencing also so that I can protect my, soon to be moved here, fruit trees from the over population of deer we have. A dog will hopefully help with that.
What I am trying to say is that you should not condemn farmers for using the available tools to try to make a living. Promote all the heritage breeds you want. But it is not a one size fit all and it is not fair to label a certain type of animal, or the farmer that raises it, because of what you think is ethical.

 

[Cecilia's-herd]

What I am trying to say is that you should not condemn farmers for using the available tools to try to make a living. Promote all the heritage breeds you want. But it is not a one size fit all and it is not fair to label a certain type of animal, or the farmer that raises it, because of what you think is ethical.

I would argue ethics is something to be debated. I would, and probably have, tell a farmer friend to look at different and sometimes better options to raise their animals. That’s just part of how I was raised. If someone is looking for help, help them.

I honestly have less of an issue with broad breasted birds themselves than the actual pardon itself. They take these birds away from all they have ever know, put them on display for thousands of people, and sometimes even send them through a parade at Disney world. Could you imagine the stress?

If you are saying that we have to consider the ethics of creating an animal that cannot breed naturally or live longer than a few years in comfort, then you need to really look at the ethics of any and all types of breeding and promoting any other forms of reproduction.

And I most definitely have. It’s not about longevity, but comfort. It’s more ethical to slaughter those turkeys at the appropriate age and place than “pardon” them and have them develop arthritis and be in constant pain for public approval.

You raise the animals you want, the way you want. I could honestly care less. I’m only trying to make the point that sometimes we have to think about WHY we are doing something before we do it.

I don’t want to argue. I want a civil discussion. And honestly you changed my mind on LOT of things. Like how important it is to feed the masses.

My goal is animal comfort before my own wants. Not everyone has that option. In my place of extreme privilege I often forget that. Sometimes a stark reminder is needed.

A simple “Cece, think of the less fortunate.” Is often shouted around our house. And of course the classic “You grew up rich!” All shouted at me by my wife in arguments such as these. Anyway I’m rambling. Thanks for showing me your opinion! It’s genuinely much appreciated.

 

[farmerjan]

I agree that the whole pardon thing is just a stupid gimmick. And believe me, those toms will go back to the farm and then one day they will have "died of old age" ....... whether they do or not. It is all a put on for the "bambi" types....
I agree that they should be killed at the optimal time for them.... do you have any idea how many of them were raised to get those 2 particular turkeys???? Believe me, they were not hatched and raised specifically for the "Thanksgiving Turkey pardon"..... they chose from hundreds or more birds to get 2 that were healthy, that could get washed and blown dry to look as good as they did.... it is all a marketing bunch of feel good BS.......

Glad we could come back to a "good discussion".....

 

[Cecilia's-herd]

Honesty is the best policy. We shouldn’t try to appeal to those “Bambi” type people. I want to see the look on their face when someone tells them that they shouldn’t be kept alive that long for their own comfort.

Again I’m sorry if I offended you in any way. And sorry for any misinterpretation. Looking back I realized you never called my children artificial. Oye I need to simmer down. 24 weeks pregnant today with my artificial kids

 

[farmerjan]

Just as an added note.... most Tom turkeys don't give a rat's a$$ about any type of stress if they can parade around and strut like those 2 toms were.... at that size and age they are interested in one thing and that is showing off that they are the biggest and "baddest" toms around. The BB whites like that are a few brain cells short..... they don't get stressed as they are kept with feed in front of them and another tom to be showing off for... believe me, they have it so good it is pathetic......
Take a wild/naturally raised one that is used to free range/pasture and they would stress out by being caged and paraded around.... and they could fly too which those big fat BB ones can't even consider it.

 

[Cecilia's-herd]

Just as an added note.... most Tom turkeys don't give a rat's a$$ about any type of stress if they can parade around and strut like those 2 toms were.... at that size and age they are interested in one thing and that is showing off that they are the biggest and "baddest" toms around. The BB whites like that are a few brain cells short..... they don't get stressed as they are kept with feed in front of them and another tom to be showing off for... believe me, they have it so good it is pathetic......
Take a wild/naturally raised one that is used to free range/pasture and they would stress out by being caged and paraded around.... and they could fly too which those big fat BB ones can't even consider it.

That’s actually really interesting! Unfortunately in every batch of turkeys we order we only ever get hens! It’s unheard of. I therefore don’t have enough experience with Toms to realize they enjoy it! My hens would lose it.