Herdsire Qualifications - DNA testing

[Southern by choice]

Can you put this on the udder thread?

 

[Green Acres Farm]

Can you put this on the udder thread?

Oops, thought this was that thread!

 

[Green Acres Farm]

This was a hot topic a little while back with the ADGA goat world a little while back, but I’m wondering what everyone’s thoughts on mandatory DNA testing for all bucks is?

Personally, I wouldn’t mind it as I’m already planning on DNA’ing all my bucks. I think the extra registration cost would help curb the sales of lesser quality bucks as registered herd sires and prove parentage from “oops” breedings. But I think there are some valid arguments for both sides.

 

[Donna R. Raybon]

I look for a strong, deep family. I have found it better to have a average animal out of a deep strong family than an exceptional animal from a weak family.

GCH are nice, but I put more stock in LA and milk production. And, temperament is important, too. Twitchy, high strung touchy animals pass on those traits.

 

[Green Acres Farm]

Twitchy, high strung touchy animals pass on those traits.

That describes 90% of my Nigerian herd. Lol.

 

[Southern by choice]

That describes 90% of my Nigerian herd. Lol.

Seems like that is almost all Nigerians and probably Alpines!

So funny how many people come to see Nigerians and end up getting minis or lamanchas after they've been around them.

I'll comment later on the subject.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

It depends on the purpose. Why? I like that bucks who are collected have to have DNA on file.

The reality is that people will still cheat.
Unregistered goats will somehow end up in the ADGA herdbook.
Unfortunately I have seen this first hand.
From people in our “backyard” (NC). People that you thought would be ethical breeders.

We have had wonderful people needing good bucks but aren’t far enough into their breeding program to justify paying $800+ for a good buck.

You remember Lil’ Joe? How fantastic he was? He came from someone with a few goats in their backyard. No way he would have been DNA’d or registered.

If you want a CAE negative goat, buy from someone who tests for CAE. If you are worried about DNA typing, buy from someone who does that.
Something people have missed is that just because the goat is DNA typed, it doesn’t mean it is parentage verified.

I started small. Didn’t pay a whole lot for my first goats, but it gave me something to work with. Could we be pricing ourselves or others out? Why kick the ladder out from someone else?

Yes, the fee is not outrageous. But look at show fees. Blood testing fees. Feed and hay costs. Vet visits. It’s expensive.

I see people who won’t bother to register kids, but are in favor of DNA typing. Sometimes I think it’s a popularity contest

Many who have ADGA goats do not show. Do not participate in milktest. Do not do LA.
Some of us do. Why make it mandatory for those that have no interest in these programs?

 

[Green Acres Farm]

We have had wonderful people needing good bucks but aren’t far enough into their breeding program to justify paying $800+ for a good buck.

You remember Lil’ Joe? How fantastic he was? He came from someone with a few goats in their backyard. No way he would have been DNA’d or registered.

Yes, the fee is not outrageous. But look at show fees. Blood testing fees. Feed and hay costs. Vet visits. It’s expensive.

Those are good points.


One thing I see a LOT is bucks advertised as being from “CH lines, show lines, great milking lines” etc. because their sire’s grandam’s was a nice animal. Especially coming from people who don’t participate in any ADGA programs, sometimes not even milking their goats. If you don’t do anything but breed your goats, you aren’t qualified to judge whether or not a buck is herdsire quality IMO. Newbies who don’t know any better think they are getting something fantastic because that’s what they are told, when they really aren’t getting anything near to what they think. The extra cost of registering a buck might encourage people to either sell without papers and maybe improve a grade herd, or wether to improve the breed overall by keeping only the best intact.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

you aren’t qualified to judge whether or not a buck is herdsire quality IMO.

But where does one draw the line? At what point is one qualified? Why should I (or you) tell someone what they can or cannot do with their bucklings?
I am not disagreeing with you. I have had the same thoughts as well.

I don't like moonspots. If someone wants to buy moonspotted goats and breed for it, then it is their right to do so.
Why should I tell them how to raise and breed their animals? The market is swamped right now. Are people pushing for DNA typing so they have a better chance at selling their bucks? Hoping to have less competition? Go on FB, you have a huge range. People can have their choice on what they want to buy.

I don't like being forced into anything. Heck, I may go to ADGA Plus over the next few years and start typing some of my bucks. But it will be MY choice. Not something I am forced to do.

 

[Southern by choice]

Those are good points.


One thing I see a LOT is bucks advertised as being from “CH lines, show lines, great milking lines” etc. because their sire’s grandam’s was a nice animal. Especially coming from people who don’t participate in any ADGA programs, sometimes not even milking their goats. If you don’t do anything but breed your goats, you aren’t qualified to judge whether or not a buck is herdsire quality IMO. Newbies who don’t know any better think they are getting something fantastic because that’s what they are told, when they really aren’t getting anything near to what they think. The extra cost of registering a buck might encourage people to either sell without papers and maybe improve a grade herd, or wether to improve the breed overall by keeping only the best intact.

I get it. We see it all the time. For does and bucks.
People have choices. BUT it's their choice.
I do think the statement about being qualified is very elitist. Who then is qualified? What criteria is used to determine if that person is qualified?
Keep in mind it was dog breeders and their registry that have ruined many dog breeds. There are great dog breeders and those that were "so qualified" because of bells and whistles that we have entire useless health ridden breeds now.

Transfer that over. Minimize the genetic gene pool by making it harder to register bucks and then lets see what happens. Personally I think it is all to silly and all to elitist.
The overwhelming majority of goat owners owning registered goats are not showing, on test, or do LA.
When refering to improving the breed... hmmm. Like the Lamancha? Where they are now being bred to be more like a Swiss breed and losing the character of the Lamancha? Getting bigger and bigger and longer and tubular? Is that improvement? The Lamancha is suppose to be a medium size breed, not huge like the swiss breeds. What styles are popular in the show ring come and go.


Goats are goats. You may have a great buck with all the bells and whistles and it not mesh with the doe lines being bred to. Is that a bad buck? Not necessarily. Genetics don't always line up.

GW is correct all the DNA will get you is the genetic markers for that goat. It verifies nothing. Now, if you need to verify parentage then at least those markers are on file but you are also limited as closely related animals may not be ruled out. The parent verification is ruling out possible sires. I don't think many understand this. You also to truly verify do need the dam as well.
That is all a slippery slope.
People will cheat. Will lie. Will do whatever they can if they are so inclined to.

This year on the FB groups it seemed like there was almost this contest of who was going to wether the most bucklings. Whatever.

This breeding season our recorded grade doe had buck/doe twins. The goal was to wether the buckling as he can't be registered anyway. As he grew we thought wow he is really nice. Great legs, flatness of bone, great spacing of rib... just really nice... I wonder if a homestead that just needs to breed their does for milk would want him. A good home and at least it would be passing on something good. Listed him for $75. Now keep in mind... his dam has had best udder 2x, (she is a FF) she will qualify for her star in all 3 categories. She has earned 2 milking legs. As a jr she went GCH and RCH but numbers were short by 1 so no restricted leg. If she would have had that she would be finished now. He could have at least brought something to the homestead goat. Instead he was loaded into the back of a van and was dinner for a family. he was sold for $2 # on the hoof. $132. He sure was a sweetie. His sire has an impeccable pedigree. You see the people that scream about only having registered stock has screamed this for so long now that people are leary of an animal that isn't registered... because this is what they were told. So... for those that are now out of time and can't find a goat to breed their does... missed out on a disease tested herd. CAE, CL, Johnes neg herd, with a nice buckling.

I say all that to say newbies read alot of stuff and do get taken. Most get taken by thinking "it has such and such name in the pedigree" it must be good.