Nueral Tube Defect - no tail - Pics pg. 1 Vet results, pg. 3

[terrilhb]

Oh Roll I am so sorry.

 

[cmjust0]

 

[Roll farms]

Yeah, the vet's gonna do a necropsy, that's what I meant by "examine it" in my first post, sorry.

Update - still alive / alert / etc.

Now I'm sitting here wondering if I should sell the sister.

She's normal (looking) and the person I bought Patch from said she'd never had a deformed kid before, just that she aborted last year. I briefly owned one of Patch's other kids and she was fine.
Saturday's the sire and he obviously makes ok babies, no deformed kids last year.

That leads me to believe it's a fluke.... And I'd be ok to sell her.

Opinions?

 

[neener92]

I'd keep her! Because she is adorable that is.

 

[Queen Mum]

I wouldn't give up on her mama just yet, or her sister. It is more likely a random event in the millions of possibilities, I think you would be doing yourself a favor to give the mother another chance. If she proves to have another bad pregnancy, pass her on to a goat owner who is not looking for premium stock. I know I would. BECAUSE up to this point, you have invested quite a bit of time and money, not to mention emotional energy into this doe. That would be good news for your doe. And good news for the twin.

Not to minimize the seriousness of losing livestock and how shocking this is for you, but from what I know of cell physiology, the fact that she has an opening tells me that her cells missed a step while dividing in utero during development. My guess it that this is not necessarily a genetic linked issue. And I think, it's a relatively minor defect as defects go. In humans there would be surgery done to correct the problem.

 

[RPC]

I am sure that there is no reason you should look at the red doe any different just because it had a deformed sister/brother/thing. I am sure she will make a fine doe for someone. i bet it is just one of those things that happens. People have deformed kids and then more normal kids and those kids never have any deformed children. Good luck and I am sure it will all be fine.

 

[redtailgal]

That leads me to believe it's a fluke.... And I'd be ok to sell her.

Opinions?

Well, you asked for it. I'm gonna show my nerdy side. Sorry.

I know this applies to humans and dogs, I dont see why it would be any different for goat.

Fetal development starts out a female(ish). All fetus's have mullarian (female) ducts and wolfian (male) ducts. As the hormones are secreted themallarian ducts will (a) form into the female sexual organs (including vagina, cervix, fallopian tubes, and uterus) or (b) these ducts will regress allowing for the formation of male sexual organs.
Which way it goes, is determined by the hormones secreted, males would secrete an antimullarian hormone.

This anti mullarian hormone regressed the mullarian ducts, thus preventing the growth of female organs. There would also be a secretion of androgens,that would allow the male ducts to form into male organs.

In some cases of twins where one is male and one is female, the hormones get "confused". The anti-mullarian hormone is secreted and caused the female organs to regress but the hormones needed to make the male organs form (androgens) is not secreted. This leaves you with a fully formed and normal female twin but a "male" twin that has no sexual organs, often having only the lower half of what would have been a vagina. Often, the urinary system my empty into this vagina, as will the bowel on occasion.

It is my opinion that your sexless baby is, in fact, an androgen poor buckling. This is not genetic, nor does it have a known cause (or it didnt 15 years ago). Its just "one of those things".

edited: for spelling

 

[Ms. Research]

Sounds like two healthy kids but one just isn't completely formed. It happens. Doesn't mean there is anything going to be wrong with the completely formed twin.

I think you should wait and see how Red grows. And what happens with Patch on her next kidding. Also what the Vet says after researching. Lots of things to find out first before you worry about if she could be sold.

I think you are jumping way ahead of yourself on this. It's been a very traumatic day for you with this Paint. This is a first for you.

Big Hugs.

K

 

[Queen Mum]

Well, you asked for it. I'm gonna show my nerdy side. Sorry.

I know this applies to humans and dogs, I dont see why it would be any different for goat.

Fetal development starts out a female(ish). All fetus's have mullarian (female) ducts and wolfian (male) ducts. As the hormones are secreted themallarian ducts will (a) form into the female sexual organs (including vagina, cervix, fallopian tubes, and uterus) or (b) these ducts will regress allowing for the formation of male sexual organs.
Which way it goes, is determined by the hormones secreted, males would secrete an antimullarian hormone.

This anti mullarian hormone regressed the mullarian ducts, thus preventing the growth of female organs. There would also be a secretion of androgens,that would allow the male ducts to form into male organs.

In some cases of twins where one is male and one is female, the hormones get "confused". The anti-mullarian hormone is secreted and caused the female organs to regress but the hormones needed to make the male organs form (androgens) is not secreted. This leaves you with a fully formed and normal female twin but a "male" twin that has no sexual organs, often having only the lower half of what would have been a vagina. Often, the urinary system my empty into this vagina, as will the bowel on occasion.

It is my opinion that your sexless baby is, in fact, an androgen poor buckling. This is not genetic, nor does it have a known cause (or it didnt 15 years ago). Its just "one of those things".

edited: for spelling

That is kind of what I was trying to say, but RedtailGal said it WAY better than me with much more detail.

My vet, Sarah Jane Owens told me that one of the reasons that goats have such a high rate of androgeny is because the kids are very sensitive to the hormones secreted in utero. And while in human species it is much more rare to have male and female twins, in goats it is highly hormone dependent as to whether or not one is male and one is female.

She also said, that it is very possible to have same sex twins where one doeling is much more female than the other, or one buckling is much more male than the other. (I have a pair of bucklings like that.) One of the twins looks like a buck, has testicles like a buck and yet, is not really a buck. He's almost girly. I'm going to wether him.

 

[autumnprairie]

I am probably wrong on this but does either parent have polled genes? It is supposed to be nullified if either parent is born with horns but double polled parents create hermaphadites (spelling?)
could this be what you are seeing?