Too many mistakes with my Great Pyr?

[Southern by choice]

Can you tell me what you do or have done to correct the jumping? the chasing? etc...
Sorry- very pressed for time so I am just stopping in...

Visual evaluation is always the best... generally dogs this age can be corrected but it takes time, commitment. Unless you send him to a trainer that works with rehab LGD's- that can be costly.
I mention this because truth is most will not put in the work.
E-collar is not the first step... there are basics that need to be addressed before anything like that.

 

[babsbag]

I did not use the collar on the pain mode, only vibrate and it was just to get her attention, not really a correction. I had tried the long lead and she did well with that correction. So then I started letting her go in the field alone and I couldn't reach her in time to actually correct her during the act and she didn't respond to "leave it" very well at all. She would be fixated on playing with a kid; I didn't even exist in her mind. We were not a bonded pair, that's for sure, she had no desire to please me whatsoever; one of the hardest dogs I have ever owned. I just used to collar to get her to forget about the kid while I yelled NO at the top of my lungs. Then I would go and get her and remover her from the goats. She also did not like me grabbing her collar, she hated it.

I tried the rolling and holding her down, I tried putting her in "jail" (she didn't care), she was a hard nut to crack. I tried all the conventional stuff and then moved to the unconventional. I had never tried the alpha roll with any dog and never liked the idea but I was desperate. I tried it...it didn't work. I spent a lot of time walking around holding her by the collar just to let her know that I could. LOL She hated it but I felt that she had to learn that me grabbing her collar did not always mean that she was in trouble.

Here is a picture of her "in jail".

They can take a lot of time, some more than others, but in the end it is so worth it.

 

[Lynda V]

Sorry, I know I need to provide more detail,so here's the story. We were expecting our lambs to come home at the end of May. We knew of a breeder one state over who had 7-week-old Great Pyrenees pups ready to go in late March,so we went and got Colonel Brandon (CB). We knew that it was not the best to get the dog before the sheep, but he came from a working farm with several Great Pyrenees, so,after consulting with the breeder, and not knowing of any other breeder nearby,we decided to go ahead.
We put CB out in the barn from the very first. He has never been in the house. I would go out to him every couple of hours to play with him and socialize him. That's when the fetching games began. He loved it so much and I thought it was good for him. He started jumping up on people right away. I would correct him by saying "no" in as severe a voice as I could muster and take him by his front paws to remove him. That never seemed to bother him. He would just jump up again no matter how many times I removed him. As he got bigger, I started meeting his jump with my knee in his chest to deflect him,again saying,"no,get down!" He has never seemed to care when I tell him "no". He doesn't even listen very well when my husband tells him no,though my husband has a very commanding voice that he has used to direct our 5 children (4 of them boys) to great effect. At this point I was greatly discouraged until a friend who has always had large dogs suggested tapping his back paw with my foot when he jumped up. Well,that seemed to work like magic! I only had to do it a few times and he was no longer jumping up,at least on me. When other people came to see him,he forgot everything and jumped all over them in his excitement. But it was a great improvement and I was encouraged. Now,at 6 months,he is jumping up on me again and dances his back feet around so I can't get at them. He does not care about any verbal disapproval.

When the sheep arrived,we divided the area in the barn,one side for the dog,the other for the sheep. They can see each other,but not mingle. The pasture has the same arrangement. Our land is divided into four pastures with an alley to access them. CB can go into all the pastures,except the one where the sheep are. So he can be near them at all times,but not in with them. He often lays just outside the fence where they are laying. He is showing very good guarding ability. He patrols the area constantly and runs to the pasture that the sheep are in and sits in front of the gate,barking,if he senses anything that bothers him.
I take him on a leash when I bring the sheep out to their pasture in the morning and CB wants to chase them to their pasture. I hold him back and force him to walk, all the time saying,"walk". I go inside the pasture with him and let the leash out so that he has more freedom. Sometimes he walks nicely among them,but often he pushes them with his snout or tries to climb on them. If they so much as make a sudden turn,he's after them. I pull him back sharply and correct him with,"No chasing the sheep!". If he does it again,I take him out.
We repeat the procedure in the evening,bringing the sheep back in. I used to take him into the sheep pen in the evening,but having him in such close quarters with the sheep didn't work out,even on a short leash. I just don't know if anything that I am doing is helpful or the right thing. There is no one out here with lgds that I can consult with. I have the time and will to put in the work it takes to help CB be a good livestock guardian,if it can be done.

 

[BrendaMNgri]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I am not on here much because of time constraints but was tagged, and wanted to respectfully respond.

I don't advocate e-collars, shock collars, heavy tire drags or anything that is stressful or painful to dogs, I'll get that out right away. I refer to it as the lazy shepherds crutch and there is no guarantee you'll get the results you want with one, either….what you will do is inflict pain on the pup and confuse him. You don't need that.

What you are in for here is a long road ahead of much learning and many deep breaths. So slow down, be calm. I am thick in the throes of a major LGD book submission deadline to a publisher and up to my ears in that…and my time is not so I can write on here much (sorry!). So I am going to "cheat" and give you the link to my blog. Peruse the whole thing. I mean way back…there is a search term box you can use on it "Search This Blog". There are years of posts about training LGDs, and more, etc. on it. You can search this forum, if you use terms like "LGD pup" "training" etc. and there will be other threads that come up.

You said you did a lot of reading - was it in LGD forums on Facebook? (gag, choke, cough!). Don't waste your time there. If you want to read one book that will help you understand your pup better and make communicating easier and more natural (and no shocks or pain needed), read Turid Rugaas' book on calming signals. Here is the link. Cheap, easy read, you can pick up put down again. Written simply and always with the dog's best interest in mind. All my dog customers who bought it at my behest cannot thank me enough for telling them to read it, and it's made such a huge difference in their success with their pups and dogs. When I get my LGD book done it is going to have nothing in it but training and understanding LGDs better chapter after chapter. No breed history fluff, no re-hash stuff just hardcore how to stuff for people like you. Like, how to walk up to an LGD in a band of sheep out on the range the right way, how to stop escapes from pens/pastures, how to reduce excessive barking etc. Anyhow, I am big on learning canine body language and understanding the cause of the problem, not just sticking a band aid on it. You'll get plenty of input here from helpful folks, I know. Hang tough, be calm, relax, oh, before I forget, where is the breeder you bought the pup from. Disappeared? No support? Flaked out? Or? Can you get help from them or is it a lost cause. Because of course it did run through my mind, you maybe got a bad pup from a bad breeder - you can fix behavioral issues but you can't fix genetic screw ups and wrecks. Just a thought…. Take care, Brenda.

 

[Baymule]

Your leash training reminded me when i was training Trip, our male GP. We had 2 GP's that had never seen a sheep, a female, Paris that was 8 years old and Trip was over a year old, still very much a puppy.

I was going to move the sheep one morning to another pasture across the driveway, so I snapped a leash on Trip. My plan was to walk him to the other pasture and walk him around the sheep. He had free run of the other pasture and the yard, with the sheep closed up in the night pen. I opened the night pen gate, the sheep bolted out the gate, running for the other pasture. Trip lunged at the sheep, knocking me flat on my back. I laid there in the dirt, sheep poop and hay bits while a very puzzled Trip stood over me, bouncing up and down, clearly telling me to get up and let's go get some sheep!

I crawled to my feet and walked leaning backwards at a 45* angle, and walked Trip to the sheep pasture. I spent a good part of the morning with Trip on a leash with the sheep. But I called my husband and had him bring me the choke collar. When Trip lunged, the choke collar told him not to do that. The choke collar made a world of difference. I used the choke chain collar to teach him not to drag me around and not to lunge at the sheep. Over time, I could drop the leash and he followed the sheep. It took time, effort and lots of patience.

I wish i could tell you that Trip is the best LGD ever, but he's not. He jumps out of their pasture and comes to the house. He jumps back in if he thinks there is a threat, and daily-he races up and down the fence barking at the French Bulldog next door, playing. He guards the whole place at night, I pen the sheep and open gates so he can protect us and the sheep. He does guard them, but gets bored and wants to nap under the porch during the day. I do know that if we didn't have our dogs, the coyotes would jump the fences and slaughter everything we have. So while he's not "bonded" to the sheep, he protects them as being part of his domain. He watches over the chickens the same way. They are part of his domain, so they are protected. He is on patrol right now, I hear his loud BOOF BOOF warning. So while he isn't totally in love with the sheep, he protects them, the chickens, us and our farm-but on his terms-and that's ok with me.

 

[babsbag]

I don't think any of my dogs are bonded to the goats but they keep them safe, that is all I ask.

 

[Lynda V]

Yeah, keeping the sheep safe is the highest priority,Baymule and Babsbag. So far I am satisfied with how Col.Brandon is shaping up in that area. I just want to be able to trust him in with the sheep. He doesn't have to love them.
Brenda, thank you for all the advice on good reading materials. I will certainly look into them all,especially your blog. I hope your book is available soon! As for CB's breeder,I do believe she is very reputable. We visited her farm when the litter was four weeks old. She has goats and about eight Great Pyrenees that guard them. We met the parents of the litter and they seemed to be wonderful examples of the breed. I was so impressed with how calm and well behaved all the dogs were. All the dogs are AKC registered.
I have communicated with her about my struggles with CB and she has been responsive. I guess I feel that her perspective and situation are so different from mine that I'm not sure her advice is always applicable to my situation. For example, she was very surprised that, at 4-5 months,CB wasn't in with the sheep all the time. He wasn't even close to being ready for that and still isn't. All the Great Pyrs that she has were born on her farm and were socialized and corrected from the moment of birth by the adult dogs,so her pups were undoubtedly ready to be trusted with the livestock at a young age. Not so much for a pup who left adult dogs behind when he was 7 weeks old.
Anyway,all this to say that I am confident that CB has good genetics. His issues are from my mistakes,I'm sure. I WILL hang tough and be calm,though,and do my best to work with him. I think he's worth it!
Thanks!

 

[Southern by choice]

For example, she was very surprised that, at 4-5 months,CB wasn't in with the sheep all the time.

That is how they learn.
How do you prepare a dog for sheep without putting them in with sheep? Yes, he may need supervision but the sheep teach as well.

I also want to mention that these dogs are (in most cases- they are exceptions to the rule) best with a partner. Dogs are pack animals like sheep and goats are herd animals.
They need another. For many reasons...
That was a huge mistake. A single dog more than likely not evaluated for such and released to a home with no livestock.
I understand you want to remedy this and I commend you!

When I have more time I will try to add some tips.

 

[babsbag]

My older dogs don't correct the puppies, at least not the puppies that aren't theirs. I think they figure that I brought them here, I can deal with them.

My male still jumps on me when he is excited and he is about 4 or 5 years old. I just have to be ready and learn to anticipate those moments. I turn my back on him until he calms down.

I would just take your pup out in the field on a lead as much as you possibly can, exposure is key. Some people frown on choke chains, I never used them with my LGDs but I did with my Border Collies. Maybe somebody else has some ideas on that...a pinch collar maybe??? I have never used one. There has to be some training device that isn't considered cruel that actually gets the point across when the dog is hard headed like a Pyr.

My dog that was such a hard one to train (Mia) is in the field right now without her friend (Alondra) because Alondra is in heat and living in my house. Well Mia wants to play, she is 19 months old and still wants to run and jump on ME now that her playmate is missing. I actually saw her looking playfully at a goat yesterday. She didn't give in but you could see her wheels turning. Adding in the second dog can make a huge difference in behavior.

 

[Lynda V]

There seem to be such differing opinions,it's hard to know what the right answer is. I have read many times in several places (including this forum) that puppies should never be taken from their mothers before 10 or 12 weeks because they learn so much from them. Also that getting two puppies together isn't a good idea because they bond with each other rather than the livestock.

I have only three acres here with one acre fenced for just three sheep. With my acreage and the size of my flock it would probably not be a good idea to add another dog. I feel like I have perhaps done a disservice to CB to have brought him into a situation that wasn't the best for him.