What is a "puppy mill"

Goat Whisperer

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This is why I have a stringent application process and insist people complete it or they don't get past the first Email.
I am always shocked at the number of people who stick noses up in the air over filling out applications. As said in my DGJ article - people should be embracing the fact that the
breeder cares enough to screen homes for their pups, not the opposite.

Behind every bad breeder are bad customers who don't care, want it cheap, want it fast, want it close by, who don't keep in touch with their breeder and lean on them for support.
Those are the people who keep the backyard breeders and puppy mills afloat. They are to be blamed as much as the puppy mill. No one forces them to buy from a puppy mill…...

"Anyone who breeds dogs for the sole purpose of making money is a mill (there could be a few exceptions, but I can't think of them now)"
- @Goat Whisperer I don't give my pups away (although I have placed adult dogs at no cost, and have given away a few pups but that is not the norm), and all the reputable good breeders I know of raising LGDs, also don't give their pups away….our time is valuable, so are our bloodlines, methods, work and training that go into producing great dogs…. Do you know what it costs to raise up a great litter of good working guardian pups? Hours and hours, hundreds and hundreds of dollars….usually more often into the 1,000's if C Section required - so all most breeders get in return is usually a return on their investment into the litter. There may be small profits, i.e., "making money" as you put it, but in my case, that all goes back into the dogs - more food, advertising, more vaccines, more vet visits, another import, etc.

This is especially true today with the flood of backyard breeding going on, fad breeding, etc. I am going to sound like the old hag broken record, but many of you weren't around 9 years ago and didn't have LGDs - 9 years ago, trust me again as said in DGJ article, you had to hunt to find LGDs. They were not common as they have become in past few years. Past few years they have exploded in popularity which has been both good and seriously bad in the big picture. $100 specials on Craigslist - demeaning these dogs by price cutting. A whole new generation of LGD owners placing these dogs on the level of butcher pigs and chickens, i.e. no respect, disposable, etc. Which they are most definitely NOT…..but that is what's happened here. And it's why many reputable breeders are really speaking out now and publicly condemning irresponsible fad based breeding without game plans, purpose, knowledge, experience. LGDs have become the new fad breeds.
I am very familiar with the costs, hours, and work. I work extremely closely with SBC (and some others) and I know first hand. I know that feeding pups alone, from weaning until they are placed, is in the $1000's.
I know that a C section at the closest emergency clinic is over 4 grand in our area.

But you are missing my point. I said " Anyone who breeds dogs for the sole purpose of making money is a mill (there could be a few exceptions, but I can't think of them now)"

So tell me, if someone goes on Craigslist, buys two $50 pups and breeds them for profit, you do not see it as I do?


I know the cost, and I know what work goes into the pups from a good breeder. But if you are breeding for the sole purpose of making money I see that as a mill.
Heck, if you make a profit I don't really care. Of course you cannot gives dogs away. I have no problem with $1200 dogs. I am all for them. But if you are breeding each bitch 2x a year so you can sell pups for $1200, JUST TO MAKE MONEY you are crazy to think that isn't a mill.


I have been doing this a while, I am not newb.

You seem upset that I made a statement like that. I guess you know a lot of reputable folks that are in dogs for the sole purpose of making money ? Not for furthering the breed or making outstanding LGD's? Because that goes against most of what you've put on the forum.
 

Goat Whisperer

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Unfortunately I have have a friend who bought a pup from someone who I see as a mill. She was searching for a pyr to guard her goats. They were already on the list for one of our pups, but we didn't know when pups would happen (They waited over three years until we bred a litter).
Anyway, she talked to the breeder, talked about the parent stock etc.

The dam was relatively young but old enough to have pups. Now years later she sees that the dog (her pups dam) has been bred twice a year, every year. The facilities were nice, but the breeder wanted the pups gone by 6 weeks. She got the pup at 7 weeks and he was only 10# and had fleas
Breeding for the sole purpose of money, that is another example of what I see as a mill.

Oh yeah, after the pup was flea free and healthy SBC had to retrain the pup. The breeder kept the puppies in with kids and the dog was terrible. Biting and chasing goats, chickens, didn't want to be corrected.
 
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OneFineAcre

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There is someone not far from who I consider a mill. From what I've seen they have good facilities and I believe they are licensed but they still have like 15 pyrs on two acres, claiming that they are LGD's. Years ago I know they had a few goats and chickens. I don't think they have any more now (dogs misbehaving… killing stock…fighting…) So 15 "LGD's" on two acres with no livestock. Only two males, the rest are females. They breed their bitches every heat cycle (about 2x a year) and sell their pups for $1200 because folks think they are a "good" breeder. When the dogs start to slow down (having smaller litters-around 6 years old because they are constantly bred) I see them on Craigslist and FB selling these worn out dogs like crazy. Sorry but that IMO is a mill. They also boast about the hundreds of Pyrenees they've produced…
They also will sell the dogs as LGDs but don't have livestock, do not evaluate, let buyers pick pups from photos, the list goes on. Anyone who breeds dogs for the sole purpose of making money is a mill (there could be a few exceptions, but I can't think of them now). If you are breeding for money you shouldn't be breeding dogs. IMO

And of course you have the "other" type of puppy mill where they are caged, unhealthy, etc etc.

GW
The veterinarian who got 2 wethers from me this year, I believe she got one of their "retired" females
They came to our place straight from there and had the dog with them
There was a whole group of people and I could tell by some comments that they were not very impressed with that "breeder"
They were very complimentary to my dogs and goats
I think that in this particular case that dog is enjoying her retirement
 

Simpleterrier

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Oh this is interesting. My main question is what makes everyone think that they know more or do it better then the rest. We have an eight month old Irish terrier. While trying to find one we were asked many times to fill out an application and I said no. I was told by so many people that they wouldn't sell me a pup cause I have other dogs no fenced yard and young kids or told I had to spay and neuter. Guess what I believe all of them were Mills. We got our male pup from.an old guy that lives out in the woods he had two females and one male. When I buy an animal it is mine if I want to take it home and eat it then so be it. Most of the people I talked to are trying to keep their dogs rare so that the price stays up. I would also say most people who get defensive are usually guilty. One thing I have noticed is so many people are divided and that's how the other team wins.
 

Baymule

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I see LGDs on Craigslist all the time for a couple hundred bucks. Almost all are mixed breeds, LGD, but still mixed. There were Komondor and GP puppies listed a few weeks ago and they were some weird looking dogs, their coats forever doomed to be a mess.

I think most of what I see are not puppy mills, but just dummy owners. They have some goats, chickens, and a couple of dogs. They don't have sense enough to pen the female when she's in heat.
 

Bunnylady

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most people who get defensive are usually guilty.

And most people who make generalizations are usually wrong.:p

Naturally the galled jade winces (to toss a little Shakespeare out there), but that doesn't mean it felt the spur at that moment. Anyone that has gotten picked at and criticized, especially when they felt they didn't deserve it, is going to feel like, "oh no, here it comes again," when it looks like the same kind of language is getting thrown around. It takes a very disciplined person (or one medicated to the point of feeling nothing) not to get defensive when they feel they are being attacked.

Shoot, I still remember the hurt and anger I felt one time when my mother punished me for lying about something when I knew I was telling the truth, and that was almost 50 years ago. I may have had the satisfaction of knowing that I was right and she was in the wrong, but it didn't make it hurt any less to have her calling me a liar.

Most people want to feel good about the decisions they make; few are so totally callous and indifferent that they really don't care that they might be doing harm. Only an extremely uninformed person could not know that there are a lot of unwanted animals (in this discussion, dogs) in this world; anyone who breeds them has to come to grips with the fact that they are adding to an already burgeoning general population. More is, well, more, and there are some people who will criticize you no matter what you do, just because you are making more. You may be doing your darnedest to make sure that the animals you produce are as free of health issues as is humanly possible, and are as suited to their breed's job as it is possible for them to be, and make every reasonable effort to get them into the hands of people who will appreciate them and treat them with consideration and care, and yet some will still lump you in with people who breed anything to anything due to ignorance or greed, and criticize you. (If you want to take it to extremes, there are some who feel that any animal that is forced to associate with humans is so warped and unnatural that its very existence is torture, and the worst thing you can possibly do is create more beings to live in such misery). In the words of an old song, "you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself" - you have to do what makes sense to you. You also have to be prepared for the fact that some may not agree with what you do, and if the majority opinion seems to be against you, you may be prevented from doing it (or even prosecuted for it), however sensible it might seem to you.
 

OneFineAcre

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Being in the search of a puppy I have been looking a bunch...

My dad wants a Brittany spaniel... There are lots of breeders here but only 2 that I can find responsible.

If they aren't willing to help you with the pup after it has left there care.

Lets you pick pups on your own... Someone that knows what they are doing will have a questionnaire on your needs and pick a pup based on that... Or if they are willing to give you a pup even if you can't care for it. One of the breeders (not the two I am looking at) gave a pup to a guy that lived in a Apartment, worked 12hours a day 6 days a week, and had plans to leave the puppy in his home while he was gone... 4-weeks later I see puppy on craigslist.

For me they should be totally okay (should even offer on there own) with giving you a full run down on what they do, vet records on everything, ALL there dogs, kennels, puppy's, etc.

Our family learned the hard way with our pup, he came from a shelter, no problem, right?!?! Well turns out he was fixed at 6-weeks, not socialized, sold at 8weeks, had lots of allergies, very temperamental, etc... It has been a 3year long journey to get him to where he is at today... And he still needs everyday training to keep him from going back, being on a raw diet because it was the only thing to keep him from allergies along with a bit of grain free dog food... It is hard but I have learned so much from him I wouldn't trade it for anything...

Turns out the shelter he was bought from (he was $375 and we got him from friends at 4-months but knew him whole journey) as these breed of dogs every month... Makes me suspicious. Blue heeler/pit/lab.

@OneFineAcre I personally think there is no issue with what you did, I remember reading thru your journal and seeing your updates on the pups in there new homes, vet visits, etc... I remember thinking that is how it should be done!

Well thank you
 
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rosti

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I define a puppy mill as a facility that produces the most amount of puppies possible for the cheapest price possible and sells them for the most possible. They also have little, if any, concern for the temperament or health of the parents, mental wellbeing of all of the dogs, and are breeding for no purpose other than sale.

I don't see "high volume breeders" as puppy mills.
Nor do I agree that all breeding dogs must be registered and health tested, though I prefer health testing myself.
I would argue that back to back breeding has good benefits as long as the female is healthy and in good condition.
If you can make money breeding dogs, more power to you. Nothing wrong with making money on animals.
Not all breeders can take back a puppy they sold. Life happens, and sometimes we are not in the position to do so, no matter how much we want to do so.
I won't ask you to sign a contract or any such thing, except, maybe a bill of sale. It's a dog, not a human going through an adoption process.
Most of the points I make above point to a BYB. Rubbish. I was also called a BYB because I breeding for working standard, not AKC conformation standard.

OP, "responsible breeder" is a relative term-don't get sucked into that. Some people think you are a cruel and irresponsible breeder if your dogs live outside, of all things. And no, you are not a puppy mill.
 

Baymule

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@rosti welcome to the forum. Glad you joined us. Why don't you mosey on over to the New Member Introductions and tell us a little about yourself!
 

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