De-Horned 2yr old Doe-WEEK 3 update

[Baymule]

@Southern by choice I started a duct tape thread on TEG. would you please post pics of Millie's duct taped crown of glory on it?

http://www.theeasygarden.com/threads/in-honor-of-journey11-post-duct-tape-pictures.14824/

 

[Southern by choice]

@Baymule I am not a member there but I will gladly send you the pic and you are more than welcome to post it.

 

[BlueMoonFarms]

I just got done reading through this fascinating article and first thing i would like to say is...EW!!!!! Ew ew ew ew ew...*does the ew dance*
Now that I have that out of my system...
Love the ducktape! It reminds me of my Nutmeg and the constant re-wrapping of her horns to keep the PVC pipe on her head.
I am fascinated by the pictures *ewed out by them to...* and the healing process. Thank you for documenting it
Will you be posting more pictures as the horns continue to heel?

 

[Baymule]

@Southern by choice thanks for permission to post on TEG. I copied and posted the pics along with a link to your post. I warned about graphic posts, so no one would get blind sided. We have an animal forum on TEG also, as most of us have some form of animals along with our gardens.

 

[rebelINny]

I just got done reading through this fascinating article and first thing i would like to say is...EW!!!!! Ew ew ew ew ew...*does the ew dance*
Now that I have that out of my system...
Love the ducktape! It reminds me of my Nutmeg and the constant re-wrapping of her horns to keep the PVC pipe on her head.
I am fascinated by the pictures *ewed out by them to...* and the healing process. Thank you for documenting it
Will you be posting more pictures as the horns continue to heel?

My sentiment exactly lol

 

[Dillo]

Sorry this has taken so long to post...

First PLEASE let me say this REALLY was a very difficult decision and I hope those reading are able to separate the horn debate from this topic. I have no problems with any of our horned goats and this IMO was absolutely necessary for the safety of my family as well as all the other animals. Some may say if the goat is that mean put her in the freezer.
Well she is a very sweet goat with humans and with other animals she "likes". At 2 years of age and a great producer as well as a very loved goat I could not see that as an option until others had been exhausted. I couldn't see shortening her life by 10 years because of pain she might endure for a day or two. BTW she has needed no pain meds. She had one (shot) before we left the vets and that's it.

Looking back Millie really started this about a month after her first kidding. She was a bit of a queen and sometimes a bully but never tried to hurt anything before that.

After going through this with her a friend asked "if you could go back after now having done this would you make the same decision?". I can honestly say ABSOLUTELY. So far Millie hasn't skipped a beat. She is still a lovable brat, a little ornery, still bossy, and a pig to boot! She came home and was trying to get the lids off the feed bins for food. 1 hour after all this!
She acts as if though nothing has happened.
I would not do this for cosmetics reasons but for real necessity only. I will say I have heard many horror stories and IMO this was not a horror story. I have assisted in far many other surgeries/procedures that I thought were much worse.

I will not go into great detail but I did do the holding ( along with my farming partner "Straw", as some of you know him as) during the procedure. Not an easy task. She was sedated- but not to the point of being completely knocked out, just heavily sedated and she was given 4 injections in the brow for nerve block. The hold must be precise and a small bit of resistance is better than trying to hold a limp noodle 100+ lb goat with it's head perfectly still as the sawing is much more difficult. The angle of the tilt must be very precise. Until I prepped her (shaving and cleaning) I never noticed just how bulged out a goats eyes are from their head. WOW! So the tilt must be precise so as you saw you do not keep going with the momentum and cut into the eyes.

BTW- each horn took approximately 15-20 SECONDS to saw off. The cauterizing a few seconds each.
The bandaging took longer than the whole procedure.

First this is Millie hanging out Sunday..

This is the reason she was so dangerous- sharpening her horns...

Spoiler: graphic pics and description

I got as many pics as I could but was kinda busy...
This is after the first horn. The first horn was easier as you could help do the hold by holding the other horn. There were only a few drops of blood that kinda rose up and those bleeders were cauterized. The blood in the horn is there because it dripped into it. It is not filled at all.

Close up... because the color is so vivid it makes it look like the cavity is filled, it is not... like a cut that dripped down and coated the inside.

I am holding her in a rest position. We waited a few minutes before moving to the other horn. One down. See what I mean about those eyes!

Second one done. AGAIN there was no spewing blood. More like qwicking a dogs nail but not even that bad. Look at those eyes.

Another view

Just got home sedatives pretty much worn off. Millie did her I love you- that is where she presses her head up against you .

All bandaged- She looks like she has the Mumps. We are showing her her horns.

She walked over to to other goats. They were scared... mommy it's frankengoat... some were brave and stood their hair up then ran away. LOL

Inside of horns

Another view- they were only hollow up to 3" inside.

So far Millie has not missed a beat and she even opened the daggone gate and ran up to the house. She is Millie- no worse for wear. She even butted the turkey. Yep... Millie is fine.

NOW- having said that I really never want to have to do that again, BUT I would if the situation ever called for it. Odd how she started all this after she freshened. Wonder if some kind of hormonal issue?

I wanted to share this because being in with my goat and going through the whole process allows me to share with others that may be at a place of last resort and have heard how awful it is. Yes it is awful but so was getting my wisdom teeth pulled. Yes the sinus cavity is open but it is bandaged and it is cold- less possibility of fly strike.

I also kissed my girl between steps and told her I loved her and it would be over soon. I know I did the right thing for Millie.

Hope this helps others.

I will be posting in another thread about sneaky Millie....

Hi southern by choice. Thanks for this great piece of info.
We just banded our 1 year old mini nubian buck because his disbudding was done incorrectly by the vet and he grew horns! After 10 days, today they finally have come off, with the exposed sinus holes like you've shown and not too much blood lose, but still some. As he was quite stressed we picked him up and put him in the milking stand so I could clean it up as best I can. It's now covered up pretty much like your Millie and has been sprayed with antibacterial/iodine solution. He's penned away in a small stable area to keep him quiet. He's eaten fruit and a bit of hay, but I'm assuming he's got a massive headache? Are you giving regular antibiotics and pain injections? How long until this hole closes over, and how often do I change the bandage? Your advice would be appreciated. I'm worried that he won't make it, cause stress can sometimes kill. He's our big baby and love him to bits. I know we've done the right thing, but I want his recovery to be 100% too. Thanks, and hope to hear soon. Dillo.

 

[Southern by choice]

Hi southern by choice. Thanks for this great piece of info.
We just banded our 1 year old mini nubian buck because his disbudding was done incorrectly by the vet and he grew horns! After 10 days, today they finally have come off, with the exposed sinus holes like you've shown and not too much blood lose, but still some. As he was quite stressed we picked him up and put him in the milking stand so I could clean it up as best I can. It's now covered up pretty much like your Millie and has been sprayed with antibacterial/iodine solution. He's penned away in a small stable area to keep him quiet. He's eaten fruit and a bit of hay, but I'm assuming he's got a massive headache? Are you giving regular antibiotics and pain injections? How long until this hole closes over, and how often do I change the bandage? Your advice would be appreciated. I'm worried that he won't make it, cause stress can sometimes kill. He's our big baby and love him to bits. I know we've done the right thing, but I want his recovery to be 100% too. Thanks, and hope to hear soon. Dillo.

Wow- seems like forever ago... but I will try to recall.
I believe we gave another CD&T at time of surgery.
We were sent home with Banamine (painkiller- inj) and told to give anti-biotics I am thinking Duramycin ...if I recall correctly we ended up not giving either. She came out of sedation fine and I simply had a check about NOT giving her any anti- biotics... so I didn't. She never skipped a beat.
Thankfully I listened to that "check"... as Millie was pregnant. We didn't think the breeding took or we would never have done the surgery... but ended up it did take and out popped twins in April!

In your case an antibiotic I would think best. I would check with your vet for kind/dosage. As well as with painkiller.

As far as cleaning and bandaging. We changed bandages 1x week.
We cleaned with warm water and a cloth to sop up the sinus junk. Iodine would be fine, we never needed more than warm water.
We did load the top up with triple anti-biotic ointment, gauze (non-stick), more gauze and then medical tape, covered with duct tape. Surprisingly she was fine for the bandage changing... still took 2 people though to keep everything in place. She was all healed up by 8 weeks. The last few were "pin-holes". The outside of the bandage may getgross but as long as the inside is clean you are good. Must be kept DRY. If it gets wet change right away.

We have a buck with the ugliest scurs, the breeder never has success on disbudding their bucks- we didn't know that at the time- LOL... anyway his are not soft wiggly but 3 inch horn nubs that are huge. The one grows awkward... we simply use a gigli wire to keep it in check. With him it would honestly be for cosmetic reasons... and not worth the risk. The base of the horns are massive... those holes would be huge. Also the best time is winter when it is cold so no fly strike... yet that is when he is in rut... I really think it would get infected with all the pee and rubbing etc.
We have left his.

You may want to add some pro-biotics. Stress can cause so many issues. Millie never really stressed, after 2 days in a stall we put her in a small field then back in general population.
LOL she didn't know she didn't have her horns.. and tried to use them...she figured out she didn't have her weapons anymore .
All the goats and LGD's followed her everywhere trying to figure out what was wrong. Yeah, she was taken down a peg or two!

Hope your boy heals up quickly!

 

[Dillo]

Wow- seems like forever ago... but I will try to recall.
I believe we gave another CD&T at time of surgery.
We were sent home with Banamine (painkiller- inj) and told to give anti-biotics I am thinking Duramycin ...if I recall correctly we ended up not giving either. She came out of sedation fine and I simply had a check about NOT giving her any anti- biotics... so I didn't. She never skipped a beat.
Thankfully I listened to that "check"... as Millie was pregnant. We didn't think the breeding took or we would never have done the surgery... but ended up it did take and out popped twins in April!

In your case an antibiotic I would think best. I would check with your vet for kind/dosage. As well as with painkiller.

As far as cleaning and bandaging. We changed bandages 1x week.
We cleaned with warm water and a cloth to sop up the sinus junk. Iodine would be fine, we never needed more than warm water.
We did load the top up with triple anti-biotic ointment, gauze (non-stick), more gauze and then medical tape, covered with duct tape. Surprisingly she was fine for the bandage changing... still took 2 people though to keep everything in place. She was all healed up by 8 weeks. The last few were "pin-holes". The outside of the bandage may getgross but as long as the inside is clean you are good. Must be kept DRY. If it gets wet change right away.

We have a buck with the ugliest scurs, the breeder never has success on disbudding their bucks- we didn't know that at the time- LOL... anyway his are not soft wiggly but 3 inch horn nubs that are huge. The one grows awkward... we simply use a gigli wire to keep it in check. With him it would honestly be for cosmetic reasons... and not worth the risk. The base of the horns are massive... those holes would be huge. Also the best time is winter when it is cold so no fly strike... yet that is when he is in rut... I really think it would get infected with all the pee and rubbing etc.
We have left his.

You may want to add some pro-biotics. Stress can cause so many issues. Millie never really stressed, after 2 days in a stall we put her in a small field then back in general population.
LOL she didn't know she didn't have her horns.. and tried to use them...she figured out she didn't have her weapons anymore .
All the goats and LGD's followed her everywhere trying to figure out what was wrong. Yeah, she was taken down a peg or two!

Hope your boy heals up quickly!

Thanks for that information. Fantastic! I'm going to take our boy to the vet this afternoon, to get a proper clean out and long lasting antibiotics/painkillers. These holes are quite large which worries me more, plus my daughter isn't good with anything gory! He was quite stressed when it happened too which hasn't helped,because I know what stress can do. Some breeders recommend to keep them open with a stocking over the head to allow air etc. through and sinus blockages out? But, unfortunately we're just coming into the warmer weather, so I'm a bit concerned about fly's and infection from dust and dirt. I guess different stuff works for everyone, but I wont be putting any of my goats through this again. I'll make certain disbuddings are done right from the get go.

 

[Southern by choice]

Banding is a very painful way of removing horns.
I would not recommend a nylon. The dressing needs to be dry but underneath with the anti biotic ointment it will be moist and promote healing.
What is really funny is when you are changing the dressing and wiping snot out of the holes... and then they sneeze.
If the scabbing over is to dry and crackly then they want to scratch their head on something and that is not good!

If you notice scurs after a disbudding simply get to them asap. Usually a mild sedative and a reburn is all it takes.
Scurs are very common with bucks, bucks are harder to do.

 

[Dillo]

Banding is a very painful way of removing horns.
I would not recommend a nylon. The dressing needs to be dry but underneath with the anti biotic ointment it will be moist and promote healing.
What is really funny is when you are changing the dressing and wiping snot out of the holes... and then they sneeze.
If the scabbing over is to dry and crackly then they want to scratch their head on something and that is not good!

If you notice scurs after a disbudding simply get to them asap. Usually a mild sedative and a reburn is all it takes.
Scurs are very common with bucks, bucks are harder to do.

Our boy is very reluctant to let us near his head now. He'll let me scratch his nose and cheeks and back of neck, but the moment he thinks we're going near the top, he moves away pretty quickly. The vet had to sedate him to try and change dressing. He is still in our stable by himself, and can see the others through the door. We give him a little walk to stretch his legs during the day. Might wait till the end of this week before I put him in a small adjoining paddock to see how he goes. Very dry and hot here so lots of dirt! Vet said not to try and clean anything out, as long as it's plugged and not bleeding that's good. Gave him painkillers and long acting antibiotics plus we redid vaccination and vitamin shots. Hope we're doing it right?