LGD or farm dog?

[NH homesteader]

I'm moving this over from another thread. @Southern by choice and other dog folks...

I'm wondering what some considerations are for determining needs for guardian dogs. I'm not talking about breed choices, I'm talking about looking at your farm and determining if you need a farm dog or LGD. Also, what are the differences in management and training/partnership between you and the dog?

 

[frustratedearthmother]

I've had LGD's on and off for a very long time. However, there was a time about 6 or 7 years ago when I was "between" LGD's, and lost a couple of goats - one young buckling disappeared completely - one pregnant doe was found dead and eviscerated INSIDE the front barnyard, separate from the big pasture, and within 30 yards of my back door. Another came up with her throat torn open. Decided then that I NEEDED another LGD. Enter Maddie.

We later determined that it was a bobcat(s?) Neighbors still report that they see one occasionally and they are right next door to us. However - we've never had another loss.

Certainly no expert here - but here's my observation about the differences:

I have Gracie (English Shepherd). I consider her an all around "farm dog". She certainly will alert/bark to let us know when someone has come on to the property. She is a bit obsessive/compulsive that the chickens stay where they are supposed to be. If one enters her space, they are escorted back to the fence that they breeched. She is a great vermin exterminator. She can kill a rat in about 1.8 seconds and is extremely proud of herself for doing so! (as she should be) And, she is an awesome "frisbee" dog - much to the delight of my grandkiddos! In my opinion she does everything a good 'farm dog' should do. But, her #1 focus is NOT to soothe and comfort or protect the stock. She gives them the "stare" that definitely makes them nervous whereas my LGD's, even though larger and more intimidating looking, can calm the stock through their body language.

I trust Gracie to go in the pasture with me and be around the goats/pigs/horses. But, she does NOT live in the pasture. She is a 'people' dog. And, if left in the pasture without supervision she reverts to her instincts which are to 'herd' things. She usually leaves the goats alone unless I ask for her help. But, she will pester the horses - probably because the LGD's don't really want her pestering the goats. But if she does fixate on the goats the LGD's intervene. They don't attack her (they know I love Gracie) - but they will divert her attention away from the goats.

Maddie (Pyr Extraordinaire!) Sweet, loving, gentle and kind with her humans and her goats. She will come into the yard and spend time loving on her peeps - but she doesn't want to live there. After an hour or so she is at the fence pleading to be let back with her goats. One of the rare times I ever had a doe try to kid in the pasture (because I couldn't catch her to put her in a kidding pen) this goat had a problem. I found them early the next morning with a kids head out, the doe exhausted and down, and Maddie curled around her sharing body heat and quite anxious about the whole situation. She instinctively "knew" something was wrong and while she couldn't pull that baby - she stayed right with the doe until I got there. Had that been Gracie....I know the outcome wouldn't have been the same.

Cowboy (Anatolian growing into an LGD hero!) Ya'll have heard a lot about him. Despite a bump or two in the road - he is turning in to a wonderful LGD. He still likes his 'yard time' with Gracie (his bestest pal) but he likes to be with his goats. He guards a little differently than Maddie. Maddie is more of a stand back and watch LGD - but with NO hesitation whatsoever to jump into action. Cowboy likes to be in the middle of everything going on with his goats. If I'm giving them wormer, he will lick their mouths. If they're getting an injection - he's in the way - trying to comfort the goat.

With Gracie, there's always an opportunity to try and help her get better at her job. She listens to my every word and tries her best to do what I want her to do. Maddie and Cowboy - already know their job. They do it without any formal training, without being asked or specifically directed and they are quite serious about it. Do I sometimes have to ask Cowboy to calm down, do I have to redirect him at times - yep - but he's still a teenager. Has he ever chased a goat or a chicken? On a rare occasion - yes. But what did he do with it when he caught up to it - absolutely nothing, lol. Sometimes I think he just wants them back in the barn...

In a lot of ways (in my opinion) some 'farm dogs' and LGD's can have overlapping characteristics. But as in a lot of areas - a specialist in their field does a better job!

 

[TAH]

I have no experience with LGD but I do have experience with farm dogs.


Our farm dog is a PT/BH/BL-mix and is still a puppy in some ways (3 years old) but very well behaved.


As some of you know, he had a hard start and didn't trust humans for a bit of time so he would seek out comfort from the other animals. The goats knew he was hurt and needed love, they would let him run with them, play with them and just letting him be with them. It helped him a lot. Naomi would butt Boaz and Boaz would nip at her heels but they loved the game they would play it for a good 20-30-mins, LOL. After about 9 months of having him, he really started to come around. He started playing with us, hiking, running around and being a nut-head. I noticed he needed more training to help him thru his traumatization, I started with 15-min training and slowly worked up to where we were doing 2-3-hours of training a day. After 3 months of this, he was a totally different dog. I knew I could trust him in ANY situation to help me. I loved him to pieces. Around this time we were having issues with foxes, coyotes, and hawks trying to get our animals. We had almost gotten a GP around this time but decided it wasn't the right time so it was on to Boaz.

He proved himself just after he turned 2 (Oct-16). My dad was gone, it was 3:15 when Boaz was barking like crazy at the front door, I woke up to and let him out. He darted towards the corner of the property where a coyote was getting ready to jump a fence, I waited to see what was going to happen, next thing I know is he has the coyote by the leg and is dragging it/fighting it towards the road. When he got it to the road he let it go and came back inside. After that, I knew he was a farm dog!! He is bonded with his goats and will do most anything to protect them. On nights I would take him with me to feed the animals he could calm them down even when there was a cougar on the prop.

I know he will never be able to do what an LGD does, he is a good guardian/farm dog.

On guard, while I and Zimmy were out playing in the water

Waiting for that stick to fly

Tuggle war

 

[babsbag]

Do I really need an LGD...I say yes, DH says no. But now I have 4 of them. I also have two border collies that are strictly house and fenced backyard dogs. I have no doubt that they would chase a goat to its death and I have seen what they do with errant chickens and it isn't pretty. They are my house guards and do a fine job but they never go to the barn with me. If they are outside at night and hear a coyote they bark a lot and then head for the door.

My LGDs give me the security that I need to be able to do farm chores at night. I am a big chicken and the dogs let me know that my world is safe; if they aren't barking I am confidant that I am ok. They have also cleaned kids and protected them from other goats and Francis alerted me and kept one from drowning when it was born in a water trough.

When I used to have chickens and goats together I never lost chickens to hawks or critters and I am sure that if my LGDs had had access to the chicken yard I would not have lost the chickens this last year to the coyote.

I have good fences, 2x4 no climb everywhere and hot wire top and bottom. DH thinks that that is enough and I am not convinced. Not to mention that if the fence is down when I go to do evening chores I don't have to worry about troubleshooting it in the dark or in the rain, I know it can wait until morning.

I love me dogs, they just give me a wonderful sense of security, day and night. I also worry about 2 -legged predators, and they take care of that too. I will never be without them.

 

[NH homesteader]

So what do you consider the job of a "farm dog" to be?

That's helpful to look at. We have bears, coyotes and the occasional stray dog. Of course always could be a human issue but doubtful. We are set back from the road and you can't get to the animals without being in our driveway.

I have house dogs but I've never considered them "farm dogs". Maybe I should. One of them is very protective of me and our property. Not so bonded with the animals, but protects them because they're mine.

 

[Southern by choice]

I was trying to upload a PDF with a chart I have but I can't get it to come up on BYH.

 

[babsbag]

I have never owned a farm dog so not much help with that one.

 

[Southern by choice]

I use a chart while I do phone consults.
I don't like "applications".
I think applications can be very intimidating and more often then not phone inquiries help both parties.

As far as farmdogs... there is a range of what farmdogs are used for. Some do live outside but cannot do what LGD's do and are not necessarily livestock oriented.
Our farmdog ferrets out chickens when we need her to. Drives off aggressive turkeys. Kills small "rodents" like possums, moles, and field mice. She alerts to any thing on the farm that should not be there... human or animal.
She however does NOT live outside. She is out when we are and usually in when we are. She has no undercoat and therefore does not do well in cold weather. She goes everywhere on the farm but NOT in with the LGD's their fields are their fields however ALL dogs respect her and protect her.

She could not take on a coyote nor will she clean or bond with any farm animal. She is loyal to her people and does what she does out of that loyalty.

Rita, as you know is being raised as a farmdog. She goes everywhere with us. In her case however, given her cross, she is being introduced to livestock and the LGDs.
She will not live in the fields but do general property farm patrol much in the way our current farmdog does. Rita lives inside.

Some farmdogs are great outdoors but cannot cut it as far as engaging predators. They more alert or bark. Their bond is still primarily to their humans.

I was trying to put up the chart and it wouldn't transfer (not computer savvy) so I put this together- It is GENERAL not expansive.
When you look at it and see the chart if there are animals being killed by predators I will ask for more detail.
If livestock is being taken in the day? At night? How many? How often? By what? If coyotes are they in packs? How many?

This info helps with giving an idea of how many dogs may be necessary. Lots' of issues with underdogging.

 

[BrendaMNgri]

I insist on applications. And puppy agreement which is and can be legally enforced (courtesy of another breeder friend who had attorney draw it up), and includes mandatory spay/neuter agreement now, something I wish I'd done sooner. You live you learn.
If someone is 'intimidated' by this process, I most likely would never sell them a dog to begin with. But then I am uber-choosy.
People will hide things. I've been doing this too long, not to have found that out the hard way. OUCH.
By vetting out references on an application I was able to stop a sale of two Spanish Mastiff pups to a couple involved in dog fighting.
A mere phone talk would have never found that out.
Sadly, people lie. Integrity is not the norm anymore. It's a whole new world out there, and a lot of it is not pretty.
As for under-dogging - a mantra of too many farms and ranches….I wrote years ago an article for sheep! Magazine about numbers.
I'll have to find it and post under separate thread as to not hijack this one.
Oh and happy new year all.

 

[Alexz7272]

No expert on LGD but have considered them heavily. My lab is a cuddle bug with the baby sheep/goats, my two catahoula's alert me of anything around them day or night and well, Vlad (my husky) just follows the pack. So with a pack of four farm dogs, they've kept coyotes away multiple times. But that is also the largest threat we have here, nothing like bobcats or mountain lions, a bear once but it was young and very frightened. We also sit on only 5 acres, so not 'much' area to protect. Due to the smaller acreage, the livestock is also closer to the house, if we were to move them further away I would consider an LGD but in my situation, I do not know if an LGD would be happy on the smaller acreage. Just my experience!