Need some help with Nigerian Dwarf bottle babies

[Southern by choice]

A couple of things- One she may need thiamine
Goats not wanting to eat or sluggish may be deficient in this... yes you can have 2-3-4-5 goats in a litter and only one have this issue.
Sometimes a goat that was exposed the meconium may have ingested and they end up sick from it... many die within the first few ays
Sometimes there is an internal issues, a birth defect, that you cannot see but is causing the problem
Sometimes a cleft pallet will cause them to be unable to eat

When the breeder sold you the goats did the breeder already have them trained fully to the bottle ( you may have already said this but refresh my memory)

Lastly- there are some goats born that are just a "failure to thrive" goat- they do happen.

Years ago we had a doe kid twins- first was big and robust, 2nd was tiny and NOT robust. There was meconium as well.
The second doe was just sluggish, not lifting head etc... no matter what would not take a bottle...
We knew she would not make it.
Day 3 she died in our arms.

We immediately took her to Rollins Lab ( our state diagnostics lab) for $10 we had her necropsied to find out why.
Sometimes they can tell and sometimes they can't (like the failure to thrive- nothing comes up)
In our case the meconium did cause aspiration and that was the cause BUT the vets said she would have died anyway!
What!
They said anywhere from 3-6 weeks she would have died because she had underdeveloped kidneys.
They put that in a worldwide database... no known genetic /heritable cause.... just one of those "crap happens"

I was very glad I had the necropsy done, one it gave me idea of what was wrong.... but two if the meconium never happened and she was "normal" but died 3-6 weeks later I would have been mortified.

I was glad it wasn't a deficiency or something that I could or MIGHT have been able to have corrected with the pregnant doe.

Anyway I share this because sometimes people need to know that despite our best efforts sometimes goats don't make it.
Sometimes it just devastates a person and leaves them wondering and feeling some kind of guilt.

I sure hope things work out for you. This is a great community and we really care about goats, their humans, hardships, joys, etc.
Hope you stick around regardless of outcome.

 

[dejavoodoo114]

If she is drinking from the bowl keep giving her milk from the bowl. I usually start my kids on a bowl around 2-4 weeks depending on my schedule. If I weren't in school I might not have started doing so. I have never had a problem with my kids drinking from the bowl instead of the bottle. I am not sure if any one else has? I would think the important thing is to get her to drink the milk however she wants. Of course, SBC has excellent points and more milk may not be enough to save her.

 

[Green Acres Farm]

Shouldn't you tube feed if they refuse a bottle? I have not experienced this, but do have a tube feeding kit in case I should ever need it.

 

[Southern by choice]

If she is drinking from the bowl keep giving her milk from the bowl. I usually start my kids on a bowl around 2-4 weeks depending on my schedule. If I weren't in school I might not have started doing so. I have never had a problem with my kids drinking from the bowl instead of the bottle. I am not sure if any one else has? I would think the important thing is to get her to drink the milk however she wants. Of course, SBC has excellent points and more milk may not be enough to save her.

We have trough fed before - same principle I think it was @babsbag that sent me an article and then I saw another on the affects of it and there is some suggestion it causes growth issues. Yet I know many people that bowl/trough feed and no issues so I don't know

Shouldn't you tube feed if they refuse a bottle? I have not experienced this, but do have a tube feeding kit in case I should ever need it.

No not necessarily.

 

[dejavoodoo114]

Wow, @Southern by choice, you wouldn't know how to find that article now would you?

 

[m700]

Another update: (Sorry if I'm annoying you guys.)

After this morning of her not having any interest in eating again and acting extremely sluggish, I knew if this went on any longer we would lose her. I had enough of stressing and trying all types of things to get her to eat with no progress. Finally, I just reached out to the lady once again and asked her if it was ok if I stopped by so she could take a look at her. She said she would see if she was able to latch on to mom, and see if mom would take her back. If so, she'd hold onto her until she was weaned OR see if she would latch onto a bottle for her.

Well, as soon as we got there she tried to bottle feed her and she did the exact same thing she does with us. Immediately the breeder said she was shocked at how stubborn she was, and said there was probably no way we would have ever got her on the bottle. She also said if it went a couple of more days we probably wouldn't have been able to get her back.

She put her in with mom and her sister and all the sudden it was like a whole different goat! Her little tail started wagging like crazy. She immediately went for mom and got a little bit of nursing in before mom realized she didn't recognize her and started butting her. She had to hold mom down and force her to allow the baby to nurse as mom wanted nothing to do with her. She also tried leaning the bottle underneath mom and the baby sucked on the bottle like crazy! Never seen her do that before. She says it's all mental with her, and she wouldn't have thrived with us, because she truly just wanted her mom I felt so bad watching her get so excited over seeing mom and realizing she can finally eat.

Anyway, the breeder said she will be working with mom to see if she'll take her on again. She'll be putting her on at the same time as her sister, hopefully distracting her from noticing that the other is nursing. If that doesn't work she is going to keep leaning the bottle underneath mom to get her to eat.

I just feel really bad all around. Everyone has always told me it's ok to take them from their mom that early, and being that she allowed it I figured it was not a big deal. After all, she was basically just depressed, missing mom. I hate to put that burden back on the breeder but then again, why would she sell a bottle baby without seeing if she had a latch on a bottle first?

By the way, her brother is doing great, eating about 6 ounces each feeding, greeting me with a wagging tail and jumping all over the place.

Thank you so much for all the information guys!! It has been really helpful and greatly appreciated!

 

[Southern by choice]

So glad you updated!

That sounds good! Normally most breeders pull the kid from birth and never let them on the dam so these things don't happen.
Some breeders will allow the goat on for the first few days then pull but USUALLY they give a bottle FIRST then allow them on a teat. These kids usually do just fine on both.
When a person sells a goat kid as a bottle baby the goat should be FULLY on the bottle with no issues.... they should not have any hesitation.
Maybe both learned from this experience.

I read on another group a few years back a lady was going to sell her kids at 3 weeks as bottle babies.
Ummm.... they had NEVER even had a bottle and were on the dam
Everyone tried to explain finalyy a bunch of people just laid it out and said yhose kids will die and what about the new owners and what you'll put them through.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Glad your breeder asked you to come back with the kid and no she/he should not have let the kid go without being fully on bottle so it is good that she/he is working this out. Shows they care about the kid and you.

So- just because you have been having difficulties and that led you here we sure hope you stay with us. We love goats, kids, antics etc....
and a bit overdue but welcome to BYH!

 

[babsbag]

Really glad that you took her back to the breeder. I have pulled kids at 2 or 3 days and not had any problems so it can be done. I also had one to train to a bottle at three weeks when the mom died and THAT was tough. I would never sell a bottle baby that wasn't on a bottle at my house before I sold it.

 

[babsbag]

@dejavoodoo114 I am not sure where the article came from, that was too many years ago, but this is basically what it said. Trough feeding should not take place for about the first 3 weeks.

If your baby is a ruminant, the milk needs to bypass the rumen, which is undeveloped in newborns. It must go to the abomasum, or true stomach. Fortunately, Mother Nature takes care of this process for us.

When the baby holds its head in the natural nursing position, straight out and extended, and maintains the tension in its throat necessary to nurse, a fold of skin in the esophagus — known as the esophageal groove — closes, causing the milk to bypass the rumen and go straight into the abomasum. Why is this a big deal? In order to properly digest, milk must form clots, removing the water part of the fluid, and then make its way to the small intestine where it can be absorbed. The abomasum contains rennet, the digestive enzyme that helps all this take place; and helps to make great cheese. If it goes directly into the rumen instead of the abomasum, it has to clot up there, which can take up to three hours longer, and make its way back to the abomasum anyway.

The rumen is pretty much nonfunctional in the first couple weeks of life. In the ruminant baby, the abomasum is the larger of the two compartments, and the rumen is a small percentage of its mature size.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

So glad the baby is doing better! Thanks for the update! Unfortunately, many will come to BYH with a problem but never come back to update anyone. We are a caring group here and love to get updates!

Boy she was a stubborn lil' thing! Sometimes I've had to toss a towel over there eyes- similar to how a kid were to rub its head against the dams udder to find the teat.
Years ago I had to train two kids to the bottle- the dam had gotten a very bad strain of mastitis and was going down hill- just like the breeder did, I started by holding the bottle right against the dams udder and gently guided the kid to the "right" nipple. The wouldn't start on it any other way.

Some goats are so stubborn, I've had several Nigerian bucklings that refuse to let me put them on a bottle. They scream, flail, kick, if I try to put the nipple in their mouth, they are the ones that have to figure it out themselves

Hope the little one thrives from here on out!