The sad state of the Caucasian Ovcharka's in U.S.

[Grazer]

Thank you terrilhb
Unfortunately bad breeders seem to be the norm in the dog world. Good breeders are few and far between, especially in countries where Kennel Clubs do not have strict rules or hardly any rules at all.
And there are barely any laws to protect the animals and the buyers.
Which is why breeders, even the ones who register with AKC/UKC, can get away with so much.


boykin2010, those e-mails you got are the perfect example of how little research most people will do before they decide to get a puppy.
If the buyers do not educate themselves, they will be nothing but "easy prey" for these greedy so called breeders.



Southern, yes that one lady does raises hers with livestock (she is also a member of BYH).
I do believe there are still a lot of CO's out there who even if they are not coming from livestock guarding parent stock, would make good LGD's.
If the owner keeps a couple of things in mind: the property is fenced securely with a minimum of a 6ft no climb horse fence and the owner will interact on a daily basis with its CO.
The instinct is still there with a good number of CO's. I have seen it with our CO's and a great number of others. But, I would never recommend to someone who is not really experienced with LGD's to go down that route.
For first time LGD owners it is often hard enough to implement a puppy from working stock, let alone one from non-working stock.

For people who just want a regular LGD and don't want to spend an obscene amount of money for a dog, then my advice would be to stay away from this breed.
The Caucasian shepherd is in general more human aggressive than any other LGD breed out there (Sarplaninac, Kuvasz, South Russian shepherd dog, Tibetan Mastiff, Romanian Mioritic Shepherd Dog and some lines of Central Asian shepherds are in general quite protective too), they are on top of that very expensive if you live in U.S. or in Canada, hardly any of the breeders here health test and only one actually raises hers with livestock.
So in my opinion for someone new to the LGD's, this is just not worth it.

But if someone has really fallen in love with this breed, and really wants to have one as an LGD, then I would say do your homework, find a good breeder that is very knowledgeable, health tests, temperament tests and can show dogs from their previous litters working successfully as LGD's.
To achieve all that I think you will most likely have to travel to Europe to pick up a well bred pup, but when you compare those costs (the cost of paying for your own plane ticket, paying for the puppy + crate, and then paying for puppy to come on board) with what the North American breeders charge for theirs, you will end up paying about the same or sometimes even a little less.

 

[Briard'nSheep]

Sadly there are bad breeders in every breed. Some don't even know it.. take my breed (the Briard) for example. the Briard is a beautiful french herding bred that has been breed since the 14th century. In europe it has remained more like the old breed while there is a breeder in the USA that has pretty much re-written the standard to her liking. They have created a dog very different but sadly it does WELL in the show ring. So she keeps breeding since they "do so well!"
It is a dog I stay away from as far as possible

Luckily there are a few smart people that do their research, like the "old ways" and to keep the traditional (working) dogs. We just have to be so very vigilant where we find or place our dogs...

 

[Grazer]

Excellent post Briard'nSheep!
It is frighting how much damage greedy breeders can do to even most ancient breeds.

 

[bcnewe2]

I'm on a crappy cell phone so will keep this short....
When you breed for form instead of function like the akc promotes, breeders will continue to ruin their chosen breed. Even if its a breed that is bred to do nothing it will end up with enough health issues that nothing is to much for the akc breeds. Yes I have an issue the the akc and its money grubbing directors.

 

[Grazer]

I feel the exact same way bcnewe2
When breeders put the exterior of a dog ahead of functionality and good health, breeds become ruined.
On top of that, for most bad breeders, breeding is a source of income. Combine that with the fact that there are no proper rules & regulations from the kennel clubs to keep them in check and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Southern by choice]

Grazer - been gathering some info... maybe this w/e I can send you an e-mail.
there may be something useful in it... most, if not all, you probably already know figured it wouldn't hurt to see if there is that "one nugget".

nite- nite all!

 

[bcnewe2]

I just had my hay guy, a man I have yet to meet ask me if I want to breed Jesse, my 8 month old Anatolian. I asked him about his male just to be nice. He informed me he keeps him a a chain in the front of his house but he was already studded out once. I then inquired where or who got the pups. He proudly told me they sold them on puppyfind for "good money". Unfortunately that is the normal mentality for breeding dogs.
I politely explained my breeding practices (I've never bred a litter in my life of dogs) and explained even if Jesse might be a perfect specimen she wouldn't be bred by me unless she turns out perfect and the perfect working male comes along. Not one chained in the front yard. Makes me sad to just think about an lgd being kept on a chain as a yard ornament.
Sadly he didn't even begin to understand what I was trying to explain. Why is it so easy for us to understand and so hard for others to even begin to comprehend?
Maybe its our true love of dogs? I Just can't figure it out.

 

[treeclimber233]

I know what you mean about breeding "just because we both have one". I had some people come over to see Drift (GP). He is absolutely terrified of any stranger that comes to the barn. Sometimes he will not even come to me for a while after they leave. I had a guy ask me if he could bring his neighbors female over to breed them when she came into heat "because he wanted one". Drift will try to climb a 7 foot chain link fence if any strangers go to the barn. Not the mentality I would ever breed. Luckily he is neutered because my husband was all for it. I mean ....come on....really??????

 

[Grazer]

Thank you very much Southern, it is really appreciated.
I'm sure the info will be very useful. Because as you said there is good chance there will be something in it that we haven't given a shot yet.

bcnewe2, treeclimber233, yes that is the typical mentality of a backyard breeder.
I will never understand people with such mindset. I mean if they don't care about the wellbeing of their dog, don't they at least want a dog that will be able to do its job correctly?
You can't have that with sick or unstable dogs.
But then again, what am I saying. People like that don't ever really sit down and think. Which is why in this country we have over 2 million dogs and cats being euthanized in animal shelters each and every year.

Speaking of functionality, I think it is important to mention (to anyone who might accidentally stumble upon this topic) that there is another group of people that threatens the LGD breeds.
I will start with an example about the Caucasian Ovcharka's.
There is a small group of breeders that are trying to preserve and breed mainly with just aboriginal Caucasian shepherds. Which on the surface sounds great.
But within that small group, there are breeders who use that as a sales pitch.
There is a lot of variety within this breed, but these breeder will chose 1 variety and declare that all others (particularly the more modern looking CO's) are nothing but mutts crossed with St. Bernard's, Newfoundland dogs, Leonbergers etc.
Only their CO's are the true CO's.
Which I find annoying because a) they have no proof that could back their claims up and b) they do this so they can sell more dogs.
But what is even more appalling: several of these aboriginal CO breeders fight their dogs.
They don't fight them like pitbulls are fought (meaning they don't fight them till the death, they usually fight them till the other dog submits), but it is still dog fighting.

So while only a handful of these twisted breeders fight their CO's, within the Turkish LGD breeds and the Central Asian shepherd breed (the cousin breed of the Caucasian shepherds), you can now actually speak of fighting lines (the Central Asians breeder I mentioned in that other thread avoids fighting lines and is really trying to preserve this breed as LGD's and guardians).
Slowly but surely, these dog fighters have managed to turn the Turkish LGD breeds and Central Asian shepherds from fighting lines into dogs that are too unstable and too aggressive to function in packs.

And what is even more sickening, these people will try to tell you how this has do be done in order to obtain a better LGD.
Because apparently this prepares them better for their encounter with wolves.
What these sorry excuses for humans fail to (or don't want to) realize is that dogs do not fight like wolves.
Besides there are tons of other predators that will threaten livestock.
The only good selection tool for an LGD is to actually raise your dogs with livestock and have it actively protect your animals.

Then they will go on to explain to you how how dog fighting has always been used as a selection tool by shepherds in that part of the world.
When in reality this was over there always done for barbaric entertainment/gambling purposes.
Usually in Central Asian countries or in Turkey, people used to gather around during fairs or some other celebrations and amongst other things they would watch and bet on cock fighting or dog fighting (or as they like to call it: dog wrestling).
But the shepherds would never bring their valuable, proven LGD's. As they were too important for them. So dogs that were fought were usually "green" dogs that no one would miss if they would get injured and die.
Fast forward to the 20th and the 21st century, industrialization has pretty much pushed out the pastoral way of life.
There was less and less use for LGD dogs. Until some sick, twisted people figured out that they could use these majestic, powerful dogs to make lots of money (through gambling and selling the puppies of a "champion").
And they started having their fighting tournaments in countries where that was legal.
Pretty soon they also started selling their dogs to people living in the western countries (U.S. included).
In the West dog fighting is illegal and frowned upon (and rightfully so!). This is when these dog fighters and people who buy dogs from them started spreading the false history of shepherds of old using dog fighting as a selection tool for breeding of LGD's.

When in reality the only reason they say such utter nonsense is because they don't want to openly admit that they are animal abusers and/or actively supporting animal abusers.

And this brings me back my original point that I hope whoever reads this topic will remember: All that glitters is not gold. Meaning: don't let bunch of pictures and video's impress you.
Do plenty of research, visit the breeder in person, ask for health results of their breeding stock (this is especially important if you are going to put a lot of money for your future LGD) and have everything put in writing.

 

[HotinAZ]

The Caucasian Ovcharka is the dog I would like to get. Yet, I do not know where to get one, where I won't be ripped off by a puppy mill. I have investigated a lot of breeders here in the U.S. and quite frankly, I think it is the roll of the dice, whether or not the puppy will end up being healthy ! The breeders in Canada and U.S.A. seem to be up in arms about the National Geographic segment on the dog. I really like the segment, to actually show a novice, what they are getting into, if they decide to get one of these "Bears". Can somebody who has experience in selecting breeders give me a head up? Or somebody who actually owns one, tell me where to go get a "purebred" where the breeder actually is ethical and always does the right thing. Do I have to fly over to Russia, to see the breeding facility? LOL Thanks HotinAZ