Southern by choice
Herd Master
Grazer is the one to answer this. She is awesome with these rare to the US breeds.
Hopefully she will see this soon.
Hopefully she will see this soon.
The sad state of the Caucasian Ovcharka's in U.S.
- Thread starter Grazer
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- #22
Thanks Southern 
They don't put health and proper temperament first and yet they have no problem asking thousands of dollars for a pup.
We own two Caucasian Ovcharka's, one of them (our female) was bred by a very unethical breeder from U.S.
As for the National Geographic segment, well I think the main thing that bothers me is that skinny guy who lets his CO drag him through the street.
NatGeo made it seem like it's a breed thing, but in reality if that guy had raised his CO properly, his CO would have behaved quite nicely on the leash.
If his CO was as dangerous as NatGeo tried to make it appear, the camera crew would have not been able to film him inside the house.
This breed is definitely not suited for inexperienced people but they are trainable.
You just have to keep in mind that they are very protective, which means you need a minimum of 6ft fence all around your property and after they mature, they usually do not get along with strange dogs at all.
Looking at your screen name, I have to wonder if AZ stands for Arizona lol
The only reason why I even mention this is because this breed doesn't do well in overly hot or humid climate.
They'll be very miserable. So if that's where you live, I couldn't recommend this breed for you. If not, then please ignore that remark
I mean you could opt for a short-haired CO, but they are very rare. And it's difficult to find an ethical short-haired CO breeder.
A well bred CO is stable, protective and agile dog. Too many CO breeders only focus on looks and not on the functionality of this breed.
I will PM you the name of in my opinion probably the only U.S. CO breeder that's worth checking out. She raises her CO's with livestock, so that's a huge plus in my book.
And I'll PM you the names of ethical CO breeders in Europe.
Basically you'll want a breeder that both health & temperament tests its breeding stock.
And by temperament testing I mean that they are testing the dog's natural ability to defend its property and owner.
Last but not least: always, always visit the breeder and check out all their dogs in person first, ask them to show you the health results etc, before you commit to buy.
You are certainly right about that, most of the Caucasian Ovcharka breeders in U.S. and in Canada are simply not ethical breeders.HotinAZ said:
They don't put health and proper temperament first and yet they have no problem asking thousands of dollars for a pup.
We own two Caucasian Ovcharka's, one of them (our female) was bred by a very unethical breeder from U.S.
As for the National Geographic segment, well I think the main thing that bothers me is that skinny guy who lets his CO drag him through the street.
NatGeo made it seem like it's a breed thing, but in reality if that guy had raised his CO properly, his CO would have behaved quite nicely on the leash.
If his CO was as dangerous as NatGeo tried to make it appear, the camera crew would have not been able to film him inside the house.
This breed is definitely not suited for inexperienced people but they are trainable.
You just have to keep in mind that they are very protective, which means you need a minimum of 6ft fence all around your property and after they mature, they usually do not get along with strange dogs at all.
Looking at your screen name, I have to wonder if AZ stands for Arizona lol
The only reason why I even mention this is because this breed doesn't do well in overly hot or humid climate.
They'll be very miserable. So if that's where you live, I couldn't recommend this breed for you. If not, then please ignore that remark
I mean you could opt for a short-haired CO, but they are very rare. And it's difficult to find an ethical short-haired CO breeder.
A well bred CO is stable, protective and agile dog. Too many CO breeders only focus on looks and not on the functionality of this breed.
I will PM you the name of in my opinion probably the only U.S. CO breeder that's worth checking out. She raises her CO's with livestock, so that's a huge plus in my book.
And I'll PM you the names of ethical CO breeders in Europe.
Basically you'll want a breeder that both health & temperament tests its breeding stock.
And by temperament testing I mean that they are testing the dog's natural ability to defend its property and owner.
Last but not least: always, always visit the breeder and check out all their dogs in person first, ask them to show you the health results etc, before you commit to buy.
Hi Grazer, yes I do live in Phoenix Arizona. And yes it is usually 115 degrees in the Summer. I am glad to know this is probably not the Dog, that should be living in the desert. There is another breeder in Nevada, that specializes in CO's. I wonder what he has to say about the weather, situation?. Yes, I have 6 foot block walls around my house, but I really think they should be higher. It is no wonder they say you cannot leave this breed alone, and never take it off the leash. Thank you so much for your information. I am sure with what you have put on the website, that you have done a lot of good, making sure there is not a Owner/Dog mismatch, that ends up hurting the dog in the end. The dog is the one, that gets put up for adoption.
And no, I do not have a lot of experience in the LGD breeds. I have not owned a dog in many, many years. Cheers HotinArizona
And no, I do not have a lot of experience in the LGD breeds. I have not owned a dog in many, many years. Cheers HotinArizona
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- #24
Yes that guy has been involved with this breed for a very long time now.
Sometimes he has short-haired CO's available as well. I could be wrong, but I don't think he health tests.
I read on his site that he has sold CO's to owners in Florida.
Personally I don't think a CO would be happy in places where it gets that hot or where it gets very humid. Ours are very unhappy when it gets over just 80 degrees.
I suppose one could keep them in rooms with AC during the day, but CO's love being outside.
Plus it defeats the purpose of getting a property/livestock guardian if they can not be outside throughout the summer.
You are right, they are not good off leash.
Maybe if an owner was living in the middle of nowhere, but if there are people/other dogs around, they would be too much of a liability off leash. Because of their independent nature.
You can leave this breed by themselves outside, if your property is properly fenced. Normally they are not roamers.
I would just not recommend to people who live in suburbs to leave their CO's outside while they are away, in such case I think it's better to leave them in the house.
As sometimes little kids may try to climb over the fence to see the doggy and that can be a recipe for disaster.
Thank you for your kind words. There is unfortunately just way too much wrong info about this breed in English on the internet.
And my other reason why I made that post: to warn future CO owners and ask them to be more critical.
CO's with papers in U.S. and in Canada cost anywhere between $1600 and $3000 (in Europe well bred CO's with papers are usually between $700 and $1000), so the least the breeders here could do is health test.
I hope that if more and more people become critical and don't settle for poorly bred, expensive CO's.. The breeders will eventually feel obliged to health test and breed for functionality, not just looks.
You can also look into the Central Asian Ovcharka's (the cousin breed of the Caucasian shepherd). Usually they are not anywhere near as intense when it comes to guarding, but they are still plenty protective and they often have very short coats.
Sometimes he has short-haired CO's available as well. I could be wrong, but I don't think he health tests.
I read on his site that he has sold CO's to owners in Florida.
Personally I don't think a CO would be happy in places where it gets that hot or where it gets very humid. Ours are very unhappy when it gets over just 80 degrees.
I suppose one could keep them in rooms with AC during the day, but CO's love being outside.
Plus it defeats the purpose of getting a property/livestock guardian if they can not be outside throughout the summer.
You are right, they are not good off leash.
Maybe if an owner was living in the middle of nowhere, but if there are people/other dogs around, they would be too much of a liability off leash. Because of their independent nature.
You can leave this breed by themselves outside, if your property is properly fenced. Normally they are not roamers.
I would just not recommend to people who live in suburbs to leave their CO's outside while they are away, in such case I think it's better to leave them in the house.
As sometimes little kids may try to climb over the fence to see the doggy and that can be a recipe for disaster.
Thank you for your kind words. There is unfortunately just way too much wrong info about this breed in English on the internet.
And my other reason why I made that post: to warn future CO owners and ask them to be more critical.
CO's with papers in U.S. and in Canada cost anywhere between $1600 and $3000 (in Europe well bred CO's with papers are usually between $700 and $1000), so the least the breeders here could do is health test.
I hope that if more and more people become critical and don't settle for poorly bred, expensive CO's.. The breeders will eventually feel obliged to health test and breed for functionality, not just looks.
You can also look into the Central Asian Ovcharka's (the cousin breed of the Caucasian shepherd). Usually they are not anywhere near as intense when it comes to guarding, but they are still plenty protective and they often have very short coats.
Hello, I noticed there was a post that you put
The sad state of the Caucasian Ovcharka's in U.S.
I am looking to Buy a Caucasian Ovarchaka but when I read your post I got a little fearful of which Breeder in the US you were speaking of? I am looking to buy a Ovarchaka from Rockhill Caucasian and thought you may have heard of them?
I just fell in love with the breed and doing more research but I am not sure which breeder to go with? I am looking into Rockhill but was wondering if you have any insights you can share?
Thank you for your time, Eric!
- Thread starter
- #26
Grazer,
I am looking for a Caucasian Ovarchaka as well. I live in WY and have a good deal of land with cattle. I have weimaraner and a large german shepherd. I have spent countless hours trying to research a good breeder and have had little to no luck when I have called or emailed with questions about their breeding "standards". I would greatly appreciate any help. Thank you.
Zach
I am looking for a Caucasian Ovarchaka as well. I live in WY and have a good deal of land with cattle. I have weimaraner and a large german shepherd. I have spent countless hours trying to research a good breeder and have had little to no luck when I have called or emailed with questions about their breeding "standards". I would greatly appreciate any help. Thank you.
Zach
Here is our Nagazi, what most in the US call a Caucasian Ovcharka, he is one of a few in the household and our only male. 2 years old and almost perfect as a specimen. We only buy our Nagazi from Bulgaria, Romania and surrounding countries. Georgia has nice temperaments but Russia pinched all decent blood lines in the 60-80s so they tend to have weak blood lines although getting stronger now. Russia, although proud of their heritage of the breed they call their own, which it is not, have cross bred so much you are not sure you will get true lines, all Nagazi should come out black or very very dark when born, one way to check the blood lines in your breeder. If you want know the breeders I recommend let me know. It is better to import in my opinion from the balkan areas due to Russian distribution in the 70s before cross breeding and unchanged lines.
- Thread starter
- #29
Pips, I don't know who you are but your post is nothing but nonsense.
Your dog is a typical representative of the modern, Russian line.
Russians do not call CO's their own, they are very honest about how this breed came to be.But they do have the FCI patronage over this breed. Big difference.
Aboriginal CO's from Georgia and other nations on Caucasus look quite different.
As for the Balkan areas, did you know that CO's didn't even appear on the Balkans before the 80's?
I know this because this is very I am originally from.
FYI there is no proof what so ever that CO's are crossbreeds. No DNA proof, nothing. And let me tell you, their DNA was recently studied.
So please save the nationalistic crap and I would appreciate if you wouldn't post silliness in the very serious topic I started.
Thank you.
Your dog is a typical representative of the modern, Russian line.
Russians do not call CO's their own, they are very honest about how this breed came to be.But they do have the FCI patronage over this breed. Big difference.
Aboriginal CO's from Georgia and other nations on Caucasus look quite different.
As for the Balkan areas, did you know that CO's didn't even appear on the Balkans before the 80's?
I know this because this is very I am originally from.
FYI there is no proof what so ever that CO's are crossbreeds. No DNA proof, nothing. And let me tell you, their DNA was recently studied.
So please save the nationalistic crap and I would appreciate if you wouldn't post silliness in the very serious topic I started.
Thank you.
Grazer, impressively insulting ... maybe talk to some Georgians about the breed. I really don't want to argue, but Please check Turkish & Georgian archives, there are COs on coats of arms & paintings as stated here looking exactly like the heavyset COs of today. http://georgiaabout.com/2012/07/07/about-dogs-caucasian-shepherd-dogs/
I am sorry Grazer, but the breed was stolen from where the name originates "Caucus" And strange that you say that as there are old videos way before the 80s, in the balkans, from the Russian breeding programmes spreading to military installations. Also Nagazi's were used in the Bulgarian mountains at least 300 years ago, probably osmosis from Turkey.
There is a monastery in Georgia that has a male, they been breeding for many many decades, as he looks almost the same as my male.
Cross breeding ... lots of Russian websites state the fact.
Tbh I am no expert, this is what I have been read and been told over the many years, and I have 100s of owners and breeders on my FB, and if you translate enough you can find some great history on this breed, so pools of information, and I have researched it quite bit.
Russian lines tend to be more mixed in my opinion, and not guaranteed to be purer, and I think it is dangerous to mix the breed such as this, considering its power and temperament, the character should be maintained. Saying that there are some amazing blood lines and breeders in Russia I agree, I would just be careful like in the US.
And my boy could be from the better Russian lines true, some of the old blood still exists, but he is Nagazi, from Georgia, not a Russian breed sorry matey.
You are welcome to complain, contest or disagree .... but "but your post is nothing but nonsense." is very sweeping.
So lets agree to disagree here.
"So please save the nationalistic crap and I would appreciate if you wouldn't post silliness in the very serious topic I started."
Seems you are not used to free speech. Above is not nationalist, I am not Georgian, Irish actually. Although we are prone to "Nationalist Crap" as you put it .... it doesn't tend to be about Russia. And also please note we don't live in mother Russia so I am entitled to post what I believe no? You seem a little defensive over the whole thing, but again off topic. And please don't belittle other people's posts just because you disagree. I am serious, I do believe what I wrote and I refuse to be make this a political argument.
"FCI patronage over this breed" means nothing to me tbh, breed was taken due to the amazing nature of the dog and labelled Russian, and it should not be so, do you disagree?
You can see some of my male's puppy cousins & half-brothers in the film "the way back"
"Aboriginal CO's from Georgia and other nations on Caucasus look quite different" I actually agree here ... maybe they don't look amazingly different but there are size differences. Georgians tend to a bit shallower, shorter and not so heavyset, but again mostly due to the removal of the best lines in the 60s-70s. If you look really closely, I mean at skull and bone level (yes even DNA), they are the same dog or very very close.
But again I don't want to argue, this is just my knowledge and experience, and I could possibly be wrong, but then you would be arguing with not just me but most breeders in Eastern Europe, especially Georgia
One question I have for you. How many Russian lines were tested? I would love to see the DNA research results. Note again I am not saying all lines are poor on the Russian CO front... however I trust them only an inch more than the present OCs in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Water_Dog
The Russians played with most of their lines, breeding with different taller & and less aggressive breeds. Even their water dog is part OC
And wait .... "So: BUYER BEWARE" You are allowed to slag of the US breeders but no one can say anything about the Russian breeders?
And my final opinion is the best lines ended up in Romania and Bulgaria .... with Georgia making an amazing come back.
I am sorry Grazer, but the breed was stolen from where the name originates "Caucus" And strange that you say that as there are old videos way before the 80s, in the balkans, from the Russian breeding programmes spreading to military installations. Also Nagazi's were used in the Bulgarian mountains at least 300 years ago, probably osmosis from Turkey.
There is a monastery in Georgia that has a male, they been breeding for many many decades, as he looks almost the same as my male.
Cross breeding ... lots of Russian websites state the fact.
Tbh I am no expert, this is what I have been read and been told over the many years, and I have 100s of owners and breeders on my FB, and if you translate enough you can find some great history on this breed, so pools of information, and I have researched it quite bit.
Russian lines tend to be more mixed in my opinion, and not guaranteed to be purer, and I think it is dangerous to mix the breed such as this, considering its power and temperament, the character should be maintained. Saying that there are some amazing blood lines and breeders in Russia I agree, I would just be careful like in the US.
And my boy could be from the better Russian lines true, some of the old blood still exists, but he is Nagazi, from Georgia, not a Russian breed sorry matey.
You are welcome to complain, contest or disagree .... but "but your post is nothing but nonsense." is very sweeping.
So lets agree to disagree here.
"So please save the nationalistic crap and I would appreciate if you wouldn't post silliness in the very serious topic I started."
Seems you are not used to free speech. Above is not nationalist, I am not Georgian, Irish actually. Although we are prone to "Nationalist Crap" as you put it .... it doesn't tend to be about Russia. And also please note we don't live in mother Russia so I am entitled to post what I believe no? You seem a little defensive over the whole thing, but again off topic. And please don't belittle other people's posts just because you disagree. I am serious, I do believe what I wrote and I refuse to be make this a political argument.
"FCI patronage over this breed" means nothing to me tbh, breed was taken due to the amazing nature of the dog and labelled Russian, and it should not be so, do you disagree?
You can see some of my male's puppy cousins & half-brothers in the film "the way back"
"Aboriginal CO's from Georgia and other nations on Caucasus look quite different" I actually agree here ... maybe they don't look amazingly different but there are size differences. Georgians tend to a bit shallower, shorter and not so heavyset, but again mostly due to the removal of the best lines in the 60s-70s. If you look really closely, I mean at skull and bone level (yes even DNA), they are the same dog or very very close.
But again I don't want to argue, this is just my knowledge and experience, and I could possibly be wrong, but then you would be arguing with not just me but most breeders in Eastern Europe, especially Georgia
One question I have for you. How many Russian lines were tested? I would love to see the DNA research results. Note again I am not saying all lines are poor on the Russian CO front... however I trust them only an inch more than the present OCs in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Water_Dog
The Russians played with most of their lines, breeding with different taller & and less aggressive breeds. Even their water dog is part OC
And wait .... "So: BUYER BEWARE" You are allowed to slag of the US breeders but no one can say anything about the Russian breeders?
And my final opinion is the best lines ended up in Romania and Bulgaria .... with Georgia making an amazing come back.
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