What next? Bottle Jaw. Really?

[SDGsoap&dairy]

07W, I mean no harm in saying this...but is there any chance your vet's not good at fecals??? I think getting a fecal from a 2nd vet is a good idea

No offense taken at all. An improperly run fecal has crossed my mind. That clinic is the only large animal vet clinic in the area - they handle horses mostly, but I would think a fecal is a fecal, right? I've read on here before that floats aren't the most accurate though - can't remember who posted it, but someone here said even their vet sends the fecals off. I might call WADDL and see if I can send a fecal sample to them to run.

The other vet is a retired small animal vet, but he sorta had a passion for seeing large animals on the side - and now that he's semi-retired that's all he's seeing now. He doesn't have an office though, just does farm calls. I left a voicemail for him - we'll see if he get's back to me.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts - keep 'em coming if you have any more ideas.

Thanks!

My goat vet no longer does them in house. He believes that without a centrifuge that results can be inaccurate and misleading. The vet I work for still does them at the clinic, but as a small animal vet they are really only running tests on house pets. I do my routine fecals at work and then if someone's been ill I've had my goat vet send them to the lab. I haven't had any discrepancies yet, but if I were dealing with an illness I'd want to rule out inaccuracy as a possibility.

 

[20kidsonhill]

If I remember correctly you do not worm, unless the fecal comes back positive, You had to go get wormer, so she hasn't been wormed for a very long time.

She is 8 weeks after kidding.

It is spring time.

My guess is that she has worms.

safeqaurd may not be strong enough to help, but if you choose to use it don't under dose and treat for 3 days in a row.

If it was lung worms I would think at some point you would be seeing a cough. but don't lung worms need to be treated with Ivermectin shots? Just saying, safegaurd may not help with this.


My last bottle jaw doe, received, the strongest wormer I had Day 1 and then was wormed with another wormer on Day 2,3, and 4 and then was treated for Cocci days 5 through 10, It was day 7 before she was doing a lot better, but she was sicker than your doe is right now.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

FWIW, my doe didn't have a bad haircoat until I gave her copper this year. Hopefully she'll shed out soon, because it is rough and curly.

 

[rockdoveranch]

Rockdoveranch, the goat is an adult....She'd take more than a "squirt" of ivomec. How much is in a squirt, exactly?

Underdosing / using the wrong dewormer is exactly what's creating the resistance issues we see in dewormers.

I used the term squirt because this is what we do, "squirt" the ivermectin down their throats.

Hair sheep are pretty resistant to internal parasites. We only worm if we see signs of bottle jaw and then it is usually Safeguard pellets in with their feed. The amount goes by the overall weight of the sheep in each herd. When we use ivermectin we go by the weight of the lamb or sheep. My husband does the math. Math was never my thing.

After one worming the affected sheep's "jaw" always goes back to normal in just a matter of hours, but we dose again in 10 days.

Our dogs are given ivermectin for heartworm preventative. We do not buy the preventative prescription from the vet.

We worm our 200+ homing pigeons with ivermectin. Good stuff.

 

[elevan]

It's been less than two months since I copper bolused. She's roughly 140 pounds and we used 1/2 a copasure capsule - so she *should* be good there. But her coat is still so rough. And it appears to be curling at the ends. Sounds like copper right? But could she be THAT copper defficient to need more than the standard dose? Certainly don't want to overdose the copper.

Copper deficiency - My Copasure bottle says 1 capsule for 150-500#...that's a lot of play...if you only gave a 1/2 capsule 2 months ago, I think you should be safe to give more. Some areas are recommended to give 1x a year, some twice and some quarterly...sometimes more. It depends on your area's level of deficiency.

Coccidiosis, - She's older than normally expected for this, but you never know unless you test for it...

Bracken fern poisoning - Where you live, this may be a possibility with new spring growth...are you able to run this one out?

Inadequate protein synthesis due to liver damage - I'm guessing a simple blood test run by your vet should be able to rule this one out...

Mycotoxins (a toxin produced by an organism of the fungus family, which includes mushrooms, molds and yeasts.) - I'm not really sure what to do with this one? Hopefully someone else can add input or I'll look it up later...

Stomach worms especially Barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus ) - I would get a second opinion on this one as others have suggested, just in case the first 2 were inaccurately done.

Johnes Disease - blood test...would save this for last though as it would be the lowest on my list of suspects in bottle jaw personally.

Liver Fluke - you should definitely have seen / heard some coughing with this one...keep an eye out for it just in case as I understand that they can have it for a little while before coughing develops.

 

[cmjust0]

So I go out to feed the goats today and as I'm petting Ariel I notice a huge freakin' double chin. What the heck is that?

Jumped on the puter and sure enough it looks just like bottle jaw.
...
Her eyelids are light pink - not white or gray, but not dark pink or red either.
...
clean fecal
...
But they don't go out on pasture at all - only what I bring to them.

First thing to understand is the 'jaw' part of bottlejaw.. Why the jaw?? Well, because most goats that encounter worms do so on pasture, which means they're grazing all day long.. When they're grazing, their heads are down, so fluid ends up collecting around their neck/jaw area simply because it's lower to the ground..

Your goats don't graze, though...they eat hay. About 99% of the folks I know who feed hay throw it in a feeder that's up off the ground a bit.. Soooo...why would this goat have fluid collecting around her *neck* if she's eating hay from a feeder -- not grass from a pasture.

Something's not right here.

I'm thinking something else is up.. Snakebite? Wasp sting? Weird, incidental abcess of some kind? I wouldn't necessarily *rule out* bottlejaw, of course, but I wouldn't take anything else off the table either..

ETA: The fact that your goats aren't on pasture could also explain why you're seeing clean fecals.. Barberpoles *require* grass to propagate. No grass?...no barberpoles. No barberpoles?...well, the possibility of this being bottlejaw seems to keep getting less and less likely.. In my mind, anyway.

 

[20kidsonhill]

how much hay are your goats eating off the ground?
How high is your hay feeder?

 

[Our7Wonders]

That makes sense on the grazing - they don't graze at all. And their feeder is mounted up on a wall - the doe that I'm dealing with acutally prefers to stand on her back two legs to eat with her head up quite high, picking from the top of the feeder.

The other vet called me today, and he basically said the same thing that cmjust0 said. In a dry lot we run a much less chance of barber pole worms, so the clean fecals are not surprising at all. We live in Washington - but not on the wet side of the state. I'm more in a desert region - I don't get wet muddy ground - EVER. I've NEVER seen a snail or a slug here - don't liver flukes need some sort of snail as a carrier? If so, then it's not likely our issue. My does aren't coughing at all so lung worm is not likely. And if this is a progression of all our other symptoms we're looking at January as our starting point. That's a long time to go on a worm load without a dead goat.

Despite all that, the vet feels that worming would be prudent, just in case. I agree we need to start somewhere but I have to admit this goes againt my gut feeling. I'm not opposed to worming them IF they need it - but they have never had a chemical wormer and at this point we're not convinced they need it. But it is a place to start I guess.

I really don't think it's a bite or a sting - it wasn't centralized, so to speak. And there was no lump or bump anywhere that I could feel. It's was all soft and quite floppy. Really, it looked like she had been deflated there. Like when someone that was once rather large lost alot of weight in their face - a large double chin hanging.

I'm also calling around today to see if I can get our hay tested somewhere. There's this nagging feeling that it all may have something to do with it - I realize it's not likely - but I can't help but wonder.

It never fails that my issues present nearing a weekend. Just once it would be nice to start on a Monday, with plenty of week to work with!

 

[Our7Wonders]

FWIW, my doe didn't have a bad haircoat until I gave her copper this year. Hopefully she'll shed out soon, because it is rough and curly.

That's interesting. Her coat did seem to get worse after we gave copper. Her skin and massive dander got better within just a week or two - but the coat hasn't improved at all. BUT - the newer shorter hair that's not falling out looks pretty good. Those areas look like I've shaved her and their somewhat soft. I'm hoping once all the older stuff sheds off that she'll be left with a nice looking coat.

 

[elevan]

That makes sense on the grazing - they don't graze at all. And their feeder is mounted up on a wall - the doe that I'm dealing with acutally prefers to stand on her back two legs to eat with her head up quite high, picking from the top of the feeder.

The other vet called me today, and he basically said the same thing that cmjust0 said. In a dry lot we run a much less chance of barber pole worms, so the clean fecals are not surprising at all. We live in Washington - but not on the wet side of the state. I'm more in a desert region - I don't get wet muddy ground - EVER. I've NEVER seen a snail or a slug here - don't liver flukes need some sort of snail as a carrier? If so, then it's not likely our issue. My does aren't coughing at all so lung worm is not likely. And if this is a progression of all our other symptoms we're looking at January as our starting point. That's a long time to go on a worm load without a dead goat.

Despite all that, the vet feels that worming would be prudent, just in case. I agree we need to start somewhere but I have to admit this goes againt my gut feeling. I'm not opposed to worming them IF they need it - but they have never had a chemical wormer and at this point we're not convinced they need it. But it is a place to start I guess.

I really don't think it's a bite or a sting - it wasn't centralized, so to speak. And there was no lump or bump anywhere that I could feel. It's was all soft and quite floppy. Really, it looked like she had been deflated there. Like when someone that was once rather large lost alot of weight in their face - a large double chin hanging.

I'm also calling around today to see if I can get our hay tested somewhere. There's this nagging feeling that it all may have something to do with it - I realize it's not likely - but I can't help but wonder.

It never fails that my issues present nearing a weekend. Just once it would be nice to start on a Monday, with plenty of week to work with!

I've bolded what I still see as a possible reason here:


Copper deficiency - Still a possibility

Coccidiosis, - Not likely given more than one reason

Bracken fern poisoning - Not possible since they don't browse

Inadequate protein synthesis due to liver damage - Still a possibility

Mycotoxins (a toxin produced by an organism of the fungus family, which includes mushrooms, molds and yeasts.) - I'm not really sure what to do with this one? Hopefully someone else can add input or I'll look it up later...hmm...you keep going back to your hay as a possible cause, so this could be it...

Stomach worms especially Barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus ) - Not likely...and I wouldn't worm just to be safe when conditions and fecals don't warrant it.

Johnes Disease - blood test...would save this for last though as it would be the lowest on my list of suspects in bottle jaw personally...still a possibility

Liver Fluke - Needs a snail host and wet conditions...no longer a possiblity