misfitmorgan
Herd Master
x2
Hermaphrodites and Polled goats
- Thread starter Green Acres Farm
- Start date
misfitmorgan
Herd Master
i know there is a lot of confusion surrounding polled goats in general not just the herm part but also the part where people think it skip a generation, which isnt possible. More then likely the goat was just polled or polled and burned because they either didnt know or they were trying to hide the fact they are polled.
OneFineAcre
Herd Master
If you're making breeding and culling decisions based on dairy characteristics, why not ALSO use the eye color, moonspots and polled as part of that decision process? Hopefully you're also making breeding decisions on other things like ability to fight parasites and other health issues. I mean, yes, it does add three more variables, but then it take 5-6 generations minimum to get to an American breed mini and that's based on ears as well as other physical attributes in addition to the typical breed standards, dairy physique; udder, attachments, etc. Why not have your cake and eat it too?
Since I'd prefer to not have goats with horns, if I can breed for polled and avoid having to burn, and scurs, why not do so? (of course I ALSO want the blue eyes)
You answered your own question:
"I mean, yes, it does add three more variables"
Three variable that have nothing to do with putting milk in the pail.
It's difficult enough as it is.
I think I recall @Southern by choice saying that she doesn't focus on ears with her mini's.
I'll give you an example of my thought process on breeding. Cocoa scored a 91 EEEV on her Linear Appraisal. (The V on the end being Udder). So, she's Excellent in General Appearance, Dairy Strength and Body Capacity, but only Very Good in Udder.
I'll also add that while her milk volume is high, she has some of the lowest butter fat in my herd
So, I will breed her to a buck whose Dam scored Excellent on Udder and has higher butter fat.
If I just limit that to the polled, blue eyed, goats with moon spots then .... well that limits my pool.
And you know what, even then I may not get any improvement.
I don't like disbudding goats any more than anyone . But, I just feel that trying to have a herd that's entirely polled is not necessarily a good idea in my opinion.
But, everyone is free to pursue a breeding program of their choice.
Edited to add:
And @Latestarter
How often in life can you have your cake and eat it too?
![:\](/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/side.png "side :\")
Goat Whisperer
Herd Master
I think most people have a hard time telling the difference. I know folks who have had goats throw polled kids, but the parents were recorded as horned (disbudded).
It can be hard when you are burning young bucklings.
We actually burn our polled bucklings, to prevent 'poll scurs'. We sold a young buckling who was polled, and as he got older he grew scurs (wasn't burned) but was still polled. He threw polled kids too.
OneFineAcre
Herd Master
I agree that it is fascinating. I know that a polled goat must have a polled parent, it can't skip a generation as the gene is dominant and will always be expressed if it is present. I have a friend that had two does freshen on the same day (Saanens, so they looked alike) and she was trying to figure out which kids belonged to which doe. Well she had it wrong... someone pointed out that the polled doeling had to belong to the polled doe; but the does thought otherwise.
We had had a similar situation. We came home one day and our doe Katie had decided she wanted to court the bucks and she broke in with them. 5 months later twin doe and a buck. Buck was polled but doe had horns. So, we knew that Caspian had bred her since he was polled. But, then we thought that maybe she could have been bred by both Caspian and Rocky???
We just didn't register them instead of doing DNA testing.
OneFineAcre
Herd Master
I'm glad you mentioned the "poll scurs" They can be significant. I don't think I've ever seen them on a doe though.
Goat Whisperer
Herd Master
I haven't seen them break through on does, but I do see does with very large nubs. We don't burn polled doelings, but most of our polled bucklings still need to be burned.
ETA: We almost burned one of our polled doeling this year, her nubs are very large. They could break through, we'll see.
OneFineAcre
Herd Master
At this point, I only have one polled goat and it's a buck.. Have not retained any of his daughters, and didn't use him at all last year.
I really do need to sell him. Nothing wrong with him, just didn't like the length of his daughters, they just didn't seem to go along with the way our other goats look. Nigerians can have really different body types and we are trying to have a longer body length and about 20" tall.
Of course @Goat Whisperer you know that buck I have my eye on is polled.
Southern by choice
Herd Master
Haven't had time to read the whole thread and have been booted off the computer multiple times. LOL
Anyway years back I had researched this subject... I posted a link on my website regarding the subject
http://www.genetics.org/content/30/1/51.full.pdf
I wrote this on my website years ago...
"There is still some controversy over the polled genetics causing hermaphrodites. Studies done in the 1930’s-1940’s caused many to abandon the polled goats altogether. More recent studies believe it is a separate gene causing the hermaphroditism and it happened to be from polled stock, not because the animal was polled. Recent studies show horned/horned, horned/polled, and polled/polled breedings to have no significant difference in hermaphrodite occurrence. Typically many breed h/p or h/h however there are many breeders working on p/p breedings.
Below is the article that started a great deal of controversy regarding the polled genetics… it is from the 1940’s! It did a great deal of damage to the breeding of polled goats."
Some parts of the study came from data in the 1920's
I have not followed much on the recent studies mostly because I do research on many subjects and often times it just gets to be too much and I simply don't have time.
The following is a link from a breeder that worked with the polled genetics...
http://www.arkansasdairygoats.com/polledgoats.htm
Not sure that this breeder is still around, the site looks to not have been updated for some time.
Notice the first article was based on 2 breeds. Toggs and Saanens.
I had hoped to work with this however the "damage" done has caused so many in the goat world to not even touch a goat that was a polled/polled breeding. It is not financially feasible unless the breeder can retain several generations of offspring. Due to our limited space it is not an option for us right now. Hopefully in the future I may do a little experimenting.
Polled goats are fine however there are a few drawbacks.
One, because of the scare of hermaphroditism most will not breed the polled to a polled. We have many polled does, we also have several polled bucks and this limits us in our breeding. When we retain a doe or a buck that is polled it puts a strain on us because now we have to have an unrelated horned buck/doe to breed with. In our case it has caused us to have to bring in more and more bucks, or sell certain animals that are polled that we would rather retain but we have nothing to breed with.
A word about the mix of the polled... blue eyed... color ... ears etc stuff-
A small herd that will stick to 2 bucks and 2-4 does and not retain, doesn't want to grow their herd or start a breeding program... polled is fine... if that isn't you then you will need to have a large enough herd and multiple bucks/does that are horned to really use the buck.
For us unless it is coming out of our current goats that we are breeding I will not buy another polled buck.
Color is kind of a little more complex IMO. No, it puts zero milk in the pail! However, it isn't necessarily about being flashy etc BUT I really don't want a whole herd of all the same color goats. That's just me. I currently have 4 Lamanchas that all look identical.
It is a PITB!
I don't want a whole herd of solid black nigies either.
So color is nice.
@OneFineAcre I think had mentioned he had herd that the reds/gold dwarfs tended to have the old style ( stouter, rounder) body style whereas other colrs have a more dairy look. As far as judges some have a preference. So, some will do well and some won't.
The other side is the sale side. We cannot keep every goat. Some will go onto other homes. I have 2 mini Nubian does born March of this year. Everyone who sees them wants them. They are not for sale.
Both have blue eyes, both have great ears for f-1's, both are beautiful. They are also sisters. One is a flashy tri color with rich mahogany, black and white.... the other red and white - strawberry -... They are both great quality. People see the tri and go nuts, she is everyone's favorite yet they don't look at anything else to see is one doe better than the other...
Yes, one doe is. Now saying that... this is by a hair... as in one being 10 and one being a 9. So, not much of a difference but still the red/white is the one I would retain if I could only retain one of them. The teat placement, length of teat, rump width, body length, topline are all just SLIGHTLY better. Yet the tri-doe could be sold for a RIDICULOUS amount of money.
But that isn't me. Maybe that is stupid of me
and I should take the money and buy lots and lots of hay!
Everything equal, and both were exactly the same the tri WOULD sell faster. It is like that in goats. Most people do want eye candy to look at as well as having all the right stuff.
As far as mini's go - don't get me started.
I could care less what generation, what name, how great the ears are... can the goat put milk in the pail? What about that udder?
Udders are hard to work with on mini's... 2nd gens are the hardest to work with because you may get awesome or you may get what the heck happened... even though you have put two GREAT animals together.
Personally I see far too many that their first goal is to get to those ears, and or nose as fast as they can and dang you ask for pics of the other end ( I notice many don't post those pics) and it is like
and then because it is an f-5 etc with correct ears they want big money... yeah NOT ME! No way. I'll work hard and build the generations from the udder first. Sometimes you have to go BACKWARDS to achieve a particular trait you are working on. Not many are willing to go back or lose a generation. Our BEST producers are an unregistered Lamancha and her mini daughter.
I shake my head... the best producers with the longest lactations and the most hardy goats on the property but for some those papers are more important than production... I get it but still .
So back to the main subject. Polled IMO really don't bring that much to the table. You will still have to disbud the horned kids anyway. Even though it is suppose to be 50/50 it isn't.
I think there were certain genetics that were responsible for the high rate years ago... I do think the polled gene was "blamed" but it wasn't the root. But what do I know.
Anyway years back I had researched this subject... I posted a link on my website regarding the subject
http://www.genetics.org/content/30/1/51.full.pdf
I wrote this on my website years ago...
"There is still some controversy over the polled genetics causing hermaphrodites. Studies done in the 1930’s-1940’s caused many to abandon the polled goats altogether. More recent studies believe it is a separate gene causing the hermaphroditism and it happened to be from polled stock, not because the animal was polled. Recent studies show horned/horned, horned/polled, and polled/polled breedings to have no significant difference in hermaphrodite occurrence. Typically many breed h/p or h/h however there are many breeders working on p/p breedings.
Below is the article that started a great deal of controversy regarding the polled genetics… it is from the 1940’s! It did a great deal of damage to the breeding of polled goats."
Some parts of the study came from data in the 1920's
I have not followed much on the recent studies mostly because I do research on many subjects and often times it just gets to be too much and I simply don't have time.
The following is a link from a breeder that worked with the polled genetics...
http://www.arkansasdairygoats.com/polledgoats.htm
Not sure that this breeder is still around, the site looks to not have been updated for some time.
Notice the first article was based on 2 breeds. Toggs and Saanens.
I had hoped to work with this however the "damage" done has caused so many in the goat world to not even touch a goat that was a polled/polled breeding. It is not financially feasible unless the breeder can retain several generations of offspring. Due to our limited space it is not an option for us right now. Hopefully in the future I may do a little experimenting.
Polled goats are fine however there are a few drawbacks.
One, because of the scare of hermaphroditism most will not breed the polled to a polled. We have many polled does, we also have several polled bucks and this limits us in our breeding. When we retain a doe or a buck that is polled it puts a strain on us because now we have to have an unrelated horned buck/doe to breed with. In our case it has caused us to have to bring in more and more bucks, or sell certain animals that are polled that we would rather retain but we have nothing to breed with.
A word about the mix of the polled... blue eyed... color ... ears etc stuff-
A small herd that will stick to 2 bucks and 2-4 does and not retain, doesn't want to grow their herd or start a breeding program... polled is fine... if that isn't you then you will need to have a large enough herd and multiple bucks/does that are horned to really use the buck.
For us unless it is coming out of our current goats that we are breeding I will not buy another polled buck.
Color is kind of a little more complex IMO. No, it puts zero milk in the pail! However, it isn't necessarily about being flashy etc BUT I really don't want a whole herd of all the same color goats. That's just me. I currently have 4 Lamanchas that all look identical.
It is a PITB!
I don't want a whole herd of solid black nigies either.
So color is nice.
@OneFineAcre I think had mentioned he had herd that the reds/gold dwarfs tended to have the old style ( stouter, rounder) body style whereas other colrs have a more dairy look. As far as judges some have a preference. So, some will do well and some won't.
The other side is the sale side. We cannot keep every goat. Some will go onto other homes. I have 2 mini Nubian does born March of this year. Everyone who sees them wants them. They are not for sale.
Both have blue eyes, both have great ears for f-1's, both are beautiful. They are also sisters. One is a flashy tri color with rich mahogany, black and white.... the other red and white - strawberry -... They are both great quality. People see the tri and go nuts, she is everyone's favorite yet they don't look at anything else to see is one doe better than the other... Yes, one doe is. Now saying that... this is by a hair... as in one being 10 and one being a 9. So, not much of a difference but still the red/white is the one I would retain if I could only retain one of them. The teat placement, length of teat, rump width, body length, topline are all just SLIGHTLY better. Yet the tri-doe could be sold for a RIDICULOUS amount of money.
But that isn't me. Maybe that is stupid of me
and I should take the money and buy lots and lots of hay!Everything equal, and both were exactly the same the tri WOULD sell faster. It is like that in goats. Most people do want eye candy to look at as well as having all the right stuff.
As far as mini's go - don't get me started.
I could care less what generation, what name, how great the ears are... can the goat put milk in the pail? What about that udder?
Udders are hard to work with on mini's... 2nd gens are the hardest to work with because you may get awesome or you may get what the heck happened... even though you have put two GREAT animals together.
Personally I see far too many that their first goal is to get to those ears, and or nose as fast as they can and dang you ask for pics of the other end ( I notice many don't post those pics) and it is like
and then because it is an f-5 etc with correct ears they want big money... yeah NOT ME! No way. I'll work hard and build the generations from the udder first. Sometimes you have to go BACKWARDS to achieve a particular trait you are working on. Not many are willing to go back or lose a generation. Our BEST producers are an unregistered Lamancha and her mini daughter.
I shake my head... the best producers with the longest lactations and the most hardy goats on the property but for some those papers are more important than production... I get it but still .
So back to the main subject. Polled IMO really don't bring that much to the table. You will still have to disbud the horned kids anyway. Even though it is suppose to be 50/50 it isn't.
I think there were certain genetics that were responsible for the high rate years ago... I do think the polled gene was "blamed" but it wasn't the root. But what do I know.
misfitmorgan
Herd Master
If your goal is homozygous bucks you would not have to burn. Our polled buck has not needed to be burned and he is almost 6months old with nothing but smooth nubs covered in hair still, shall see if that changes but i dont think it will because i saw his father who is also polled and he looks the same without being burned at a year and a half old.
I believe if you start with good standard-size stock and are working on a polled herd it would not add much more difficulty to your breeding. I believe anything mini, dwarfs or pygmies is a totally different story.
If for example i have a Saanen doe, and two alpine does who have good dairyness, good size, good rump, good teats, good udder, etc....and i want to put a polled buck whose mother and grandmother on both sides had the same or better, im not sure how that could be making my breeding more difficult. Later when i need to replace the buck its possible that it could but finding a standard polled diary breed buck who has good dairy lines doesnt seem to be horribly hard in my area. Since i only own two registered does atm and dont plan on getting more registered im not limited in Bucks, i can breed all the does to any breed buck. If i come out with a herd of polled mutts im fine with that as long as they give good milk, our kids we dont keep go to 4h or a pets.
I can see if you were trying to breed for blue eyed moonspotted polled nigerians that were good for dairy...in that case its either going to take a very long time or something is gonna get left behind.
I believe if you start with good standard-size stock and are working on a polled herd it would not add much more difficulty to your breeding. I believe anything mini, dwarfs or pygmies is a totally different story.
If for example i have a Saanen doe, and two alpine does who have good dairyness, good size, good rump, good teats, good udder, etc....and i want to put a polled buck whose mother and grandmother on both sides had the same or better, im not sure how that could be making my breeding more difficult. Later when i need to replace the buck its possible that it could but finding a standard polled diary breed buck who has good dairy lines doesnt seem to be horribly hard in my area. Since i only own two registered does atm and dont plan on getting more registered im not limited in Bucks, i can breed all the does to any breed buck. If i come out with a herd of polled mutts im fine with that as long as they give good milk, our kids we dont keep go to 4h or a pets.
I can see if you were trying to breed for blue eyed moonspotted polled nigerians that were good for dairy...in that case its either going to take a very long time or something is gonna get left behind.
