Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) Vaccine for goats

[broke down ranch]

OK, we all choose to do what we think is best to keep our herd healthy. Can anyone tell me if either of these vaccines can be given to a pregnant or lactating goat? I am planning on ordering some Equimax from Jeffers and if these can be given to my pregnant girls then I would like to include them in my order (to justify the shipping charges....lol).

 

[trestlecreek]

I wouldn't....

 

[broke down ranch]

I wouldn't....

Yes, I know. Thanks for your input, tho....

 

[cmjust0]

If you keep learning about how vaccines work and how virus/bacteria grow and proliferate, drug testing protocols and trials, etc .....then you will understand what I am saying.

Well...that's kinda what I was trying to do.

Not to sound mean or argumentative at all, I just can not continue to explain this ten different ways. There is too much base information needed to lead up to what I am saying.

I'm not looking for 10 ways, and I'm not looking for an argument either.. Just good information.. You seem to have a good deal of experience with how this all works, and I for one would truly appreciate it if you could share that with us.. Afterall, if there's a sound scientific explanation for why I shouldn't be vaccinating goats for CL -- aside from it simply being off-label -- I'd surely like to know..

I can't help but wonder.....had the injection-site reactions not been as severe as what Colorado saw, Case-Bac would probably be labelled for sheep and goats right now.. Would you feel differently about it then, even though it would be the same vaccine with the same CL antigen that's available right now?

Again...not trying to argue.. Just trying to learn.

 

[helmstead]

My 2 cents, FWIW...

I would NOT use the commercially available CL vaccine.

The information I have gathered leads me to this point: IF you have a goat test positive for CL in your herd you can have a vaccine made for that specific strain and vaccinate the negative goats in your herd for that specific strain. This is all IF you wouldn't rather just cull the positive animal and continue regular testing. Labor intesive and costly? Yes...but what about animal husbandry isn't one or both?

IMO the best thing to do is avoid CL altogether, buying from clean herds, never even attending auctions, don't allow human visitors into your pens, etc. I know the dairy and Pygmy people feel differently than the meat goat community on this at large...but it's pretty clean cut to me.

If you avoid the risk, you avoid the need for a vaccine. I relate it to vaccinating horses for Strangles. If your horses stay home (no shows, no off site trail rides, no nearby horses who are in these activities), aren't in a show/sale/boarding barn with high turn over...generally if the risk factor is low - you don't vaccinate for it.

Vaccinations for organisms that are found in soil or ever present - like rabies, C/D and tet...now those should be non negotiable as they are a constant risk. Sort of like how my horses are always vaccinated for rabies, enceph, tet, WNV, etc...environmental hazards.

 

[cmjust0]

My 2 cents, FWIW...

I would NOT use the commercially available CL vaccine.

The information I have gathered leads me to this point: IF you have a goat test positive for CL in your herd you can have a vaccine made for that specific strain and vaccinate the negative goats in your herd for that specific strain. This is all IF you wouldn't rather just cull the positive animal and continue regular testing. Labor intesive and costly? Yes...but what about animal husbandry isn't one or both?

Labor intensive and costly is one thing, but PHL Associates -- the ones selling the autogenous vaccine -- seem to be taking that to an extreme.

For instance, they now have a minimum order of **20** 100ml bottles of their CL vaccine, which is enough to treat 1,000 adult goats..

Yes...ONE THOUSAND GOATS.

The collection kit alone costs $98.. Even if it only cost $0.55/head like Case-Bac (highly unlikely -- they don't even list the price of the actual vaccine!!!), you're still looking at about $650 -- minimum -- just to get your feet wet.. Probably much, much, much more than that.

That said, there are a few other things about their system that strike me as odd...

For instance, once you send in your collection, they say they'll develop and test the vaccine within 4 to 6 weeks. Not sure how that works, considering a goat can incubate CL for 90 days or longer before it begins to show physical symptoms... Makes me wonder what they mean by "test."

Also, check this out from their FAQ page:

What if my herd has infected goats from different areas?
Most ranchers choose to have a vaccine made from one isolate. Chances, this vaccine will protect the entire herd. But, if abscesses continue to occur, you can take separate samples from up to three different goats and have up to three isolates made.

:/ I think they just let the cat out of the bag here...

What I mean is...if, by their own admission, a single isolate will most likely protect the entire herd from different strains of CL, then what's the point of a custom-cultured autogenous vaccine to begin with?

Frankly, I don't buy it..

I'm not gonna come right out and say that I think they're selling straight-up snake oil, because I don't necessarily doubt that the vaccine works...I just happen to believe that Case-Bac works, too, and probably just as well.

So, compared to a $5.47 bottle of Case-Bac, maybe the PHL vaccine just looks like snake oil...

IMO the best thing to do is avoid CL altogether, buying from clean herds, never even attending auctions, don't allow human visitors into your pens, etc. I know the dairy and Pygmy people feel differently than the meat goat community on this at large...but it's pretty clean cut to me.

I agree -- avoid it if you can.

For me, though, in my particular situation....I'd consider CL to be basically endemic to my area right now. To not vaccinate my herd against it, to me, is like playing Russian roulette with their health -- not mine.

I will continue to practice good biosecurity, but I just can't help but feel like someday, at some point, CL's gonna make its way to my farm on a boot or tire or a whitetail deer and I'm gonna regret not having vaccinated against it.

It would be one thing if there were some kind of serious potential downside to vaccinating, but I'm just not seeing it at this point.. All I see is upside, apart from the same basic risks you run with any other vaccine (injection reactions, anaphylaxis, etc)..

That said, I'll be ordering Case-Bac soon.

 

[broke down ranch]

Well, in my case we brought home a Saanen billy. He was isolated. Acted fine, ate fine, showed no problems of ANY kind. We decided he was the wrong direction for our next round of kids. We had him for a little over a month (isolated this whole time) when we sold him. The new owners had him 2 weeks when he had an abcess come up and burst, seemingly overnight. What would have happened if he had not shown any of this and I integrated him into my herd then he had a abcess burst? It's bad enough this woman now has to deal with this problem. And it wasn't even something I knew about....

So my worry is if that stuff is here, if he shed it somehow and we just didn't see it. I haven't had any of my goats develop this and I would prefer to keep it that way.

 

[Roll farms]

Long story short, or at least as short as possible....I bought a goat from a well-known and well-reputed breeder (Not a sale barn) that had vet signed health papers that... brought CL into my herd 2 mos. later.
*gasp*
Called the vet, had the suspicous lump tested and sure enough it was CL.
(This was 6 or 7 yrs ago...)

She advised me I could:
A) cull / kill my herd as they got lumps,
*or*
B) I could have a vaccine made that was from *my* herd (strain).

Because I LOVE my goats, I couldn't cull them, and I wasn't going to send them to the sale barn for some other person to deal with.

360$ later, I have 2 bottles of vaccine....and CL went rampant through my 'herd' of 10 goats in the next year. ALL of them had it.
(My suspicion now is that the vaccine was mishandled en route OR wasn't made properly...)

But...hmmm...none were dying or 'sickly'....just icky lumps that I have to lance / drain. Inconvenient? Yes. The end of the world? Nope.
(Again, keep in mind we don't show so I didn't have to worry about that aspect of it...That would be a whole other ball game.)

I vaccinated all the new kids I kept for breeders, my older carriers, etc. Still kept getting it in anyone here longer than 6 mos. It took nearly 2 yrs to use up all of that vaccine.

I don't sell adults, and anyone who's been exposed to the older carriers is here for life, period.

(I catch every kid at birth, the newborns leave at 7-10 days of age from a 'clean' barn, and not ONCE has a kid I've sold ended up w/ CL....Not once. That's close to 200 kids as the herd has grown. )

Once that vaccine ran out, I did more research and thought "Why not try the Case-Bac?" ....so we did....and suddenly the number of new cases of CL dropped. We've been using it on all of our keepers for the last 3 yrs.

8 of the original 10, plus 5 others from the 'custom made vaccine' time frame, are here and are still CL positive. They don't break out often, and usually it's not long after they've been given a booster shot of the Case-Bac vaccine.

1 of the does born 2 yrs ago (Case-Bac) is positive. I'm not sure if the vaccine failed or if I did (when I administered it), but for some reason, it didn't work on her.

We have an isolation pen for 'lumpy' does to go into when I see or feel one coming on. They are there until they've been drained and heal over.

It's not common for anyone to admit they have CL but it's a LOT more common than folks think. Most practice the "sell 'em at the sale barn as they break out and lie through your teeth" route.

I admit we have it, I admit it's a pain in the hiney to deal with.
But do I feel like I'm part of the problem? No.

My "sick" goats are healthy, beautiful, productive...I'm GLAD I didn't cull them. I'm proud of myself for not sending them off to the sale barn and helping to spread the disease....for dealing with it here.

None of our bucks have it / have ever gotten it. When people ask for buck service here, I tell them we have CL in our herd, and how we deal with it, and let them decide if they want to 'risk' it. I scare some folks off, but even they tell me they appreciate my honesty.
Some have been back 5 yrs running w/ no issues.

Most people would tell you "You'd never know she has CL in her herd."

It's not the best way, or the easiest, but it's the only way I could find to deal with it and not hate myself for either spreading it or killing them.

I would LOVE it if my boer kids could nurse off their moms. I caught / bottle raised (for 7-10 days) 55 kids last year alone!

I agree, people SHOULD stop the spread of the disease...it starts w/ being HONEST about it. I'd give anything to NOT have to deal w/ this...

 

[trestlecreek]

I commend you for your honesty and I agree, if I were in your situation, I'm sure I would have done as you are doing. I too love my goats and I know they are my responsibility.
I despise people that sell goats knowing they have a disease and do not tell it. It takes a good heart and a good mind to deal with these things correctly. I just wish there were more of us around.

 

[lilhill]

I commend you for your honesty and I agree, if I were in your situation, I'm sure I would have done as you are doing. I too love my goats and I know they are my responsibility.
I despise people that sell goats knowing they have a disease and do not tell it. It takes a good heart and a good mind to deal with these things correctly. I just wish there were more of us around.

I agree and commend you for the way you have handled the whole situation.