genetics?

[SchönFarbe]

I want to create a new goat breed. crossing 2 meat breeds and 3 dairy breeds. is there any way i can ensure that they are the size and meet quantity of a meat goat and still have the milk production of a dairy goat. PLEASE HELP!!!!!

 

[frustratedearthmother]

Lots of experimentation is my guess.

 

[Latestarter]

What you are proposing is not a simple or quick process. It will take years and years of devotion and effort to accomplish. Based on the number of variables you're starting with, you'll have a heck of a time being successful... I'm not a geneticist, but understand basic math...

What I'd recommend is starting with 2 separate herds; meat and dairy, then breeding/crossing strictly meat breeds with one and strictly dairy with the other until you produce the goat you are looking for of each basic type (6-10 generations), then crossing the offspring from those lines to produce your "new breed" (another 6-10 generations). Since you wish to cross 3 dairy breeds (why?!), you have made the dairy side twice as difficult as the meat side. You will need to cross 2 breeds first for multiple generations (6-10) to blend traits, then start all over with the third breed to mix in the wanted traits from that breed, again, for multiple generations (another 6-10) to get the "final" desired (new) dairy breed for your final cross. So right now, you're looking at a minimum of 12 years (if every breeding goes perfectly).

In order to produce a "new breed" you will need to breed 6 (required)-10 generations or more, until you can replicate the (new breed) with each successive breeding, without "unaccepted traits" from the parent stock coming through. For example, you can read up on what people have done with production of minis (mini lamanchas, mini nubians, mini alpines, etc.). They are not considered a true mini "whatever" until the 6th generation (F6). And once at F6, those animals must always produce offspring that meet the "breed standard". Since the minis above are normally started by crossing the original large breed with Nigerian Dwarf bucks, if the F6 animals are bred and produce a "pure bred" Mini Lamancha, and it ends up with Nigie ears... then you have to go more generations to breed that back out.

Also, during the F1-F6 process, you may have to/decide to breed a higher F# back to a lower F# to eliminate a trait or enhance a trait, which makes those offspring the lower F#; so cross an F5 with an F3, and the offspring would NOT be F6, but drop back to F3 (the lowest F# of the breeding).

So it takes years (and devotion/dedication) to accomplish what you wish to accomplish. The more variables you add, the longer it will take. Best of luck!

 

[SchönFarbe]

What you are proposing is not a simple or quick process. It will take years and years of devotion and effort to accomplish. Based on the number of variables you're starting with, you'll have a heck of a time being successful... I'm not a geneticist, but understand basic math...

What I'd recommend is starting with 2 separate herds; meat and dairy, then breeding/crossing strictly meat breeds with one and strictly dairy with the other until you produce the goat you are looking for of each basic type (6-10 generations), then crossing the offspring from those lines to produce your "new breed" (another 6-10 generations). Since you wish to cross 3 dairy breeds (why?!), you have made the dairy side twice as difficult as the meat side. You will need to cross 2 breeds first for multiple generations (6-10) to blend traits, then start all over with the third breed to mix in the wanted traits from that breed, again, for multiple generations (another 6-10) to get the "final" desired (new) dairy breed for your final cross. So right now, you're looking at a minimum of 12 years (if every breeding goes perfectly).

In order to produce a "new breed" you will need to breed 6 (required)-10 generations or more, until you can replicate the (new breed) with each successive breeding, without "unaccepted traits" from the parent stock coming through. For example, you can read up on what people have done with production of minis (mini lamanchas, mini nubians, mini alpines, etc.). They are not considered a true mini "whatever" until the 6th generation (F6). And once at F6, those animals must always produce offspring that meet the "breed standard". Since the minis above are normally started by crossing the original large breed with Nigerian Dwarf bucks, if the F6 animals are bred and produce a "pure bred" Mini Lamancha, and it ends up with Nigie ears... then you have to go more generations to breed that back out.

Also, during the F1-F6 process, you may have to/decide to breed a higher F# back to a lower F# to eliminate a trait or enhance a trait, which makes those offspring the lower F#; so cross an F5 with an F3, and the offspring would NOT be F6, but drop back to F3 (the lowest F# of the breeding).

So it takes years (and devotion/dedication) to accomplish what you wish to accomplish. The more variables you add, the longer it will take. Best of luck!

well my buck is a lamancha sannen cross and my doe is a nubian kiko boar cross so im already half way i just want a way to ensure the kids come out how I want

 

[Southern by choice]

This will take years of generations.
The Kiko was derived from the top dairy goats crossed with the feral goats of New Zealand so the Kiko is a great dual purpose in its own right.
If using Nubian I would recommend testing for G6S before continuing.

 

[Latestarter]

well my buck is a lamancha sannen cross and my doe is a nubian kiko boar cross so im already half way i just want a way to ensure the kids come out how I want

If all you want is some rendition of a cross of the 5 breeds you already have mixed, then just let them breed and select from the offspring those with the traits that you want and leave it at that. You haven't created a "new breed" as you stated you want, but you'll get the particulars that you specifically want in the specific goats you select to keep. There's no way you can ensure ANY characteristics with what you have. You'll get what you get and either keep it or sell it.

I don't mean to sound rude or belittling and this is a very complex subject. I hope you can read it and stay awake. The only way to "ensure the kids come out as you want" is to breed multiple generations as I tried to explain before, until you PERFECT the exact goat you are trying to create. Then and ONLY then will you be able to ensure the future offspring will come out exactly as you desire. It takes exactly 6 generations PLUS, no less and most likely many more, to get to that standard you stated you want, and that is WHEN DEALING WITH ONLY 2 VARIABLES (breeds) and we haven't even looked at breed characteristics yet.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you're not even 5% of the way there... You are presently working with 2 KNOWN variables on the buck side and 3 KNOWN variables on the doe side... And to compound things the doe side has 1 dairy and 2 meat goat variables already. In order to get what you specifically want from what you have, you'd need to breed what you have then re-breed with new stock with the exact same mixes over a period of approximately 15 years or more to "ensure" the offspring will be what you want. I don't even want to try to break that one down, let alone the "simpler" one, but just to give you ONE characteristic and give an inkling, I'll talk about the "easy" one.

OK, so is your buck a first generation (F1) cross between a pure bred registered Lamancha and a pure bred registered Sannen? Or are the parent stock also crosses? Do you know? Can you prove it? If you can't, then you have no idea what the "cross" really is... like I asked... can you prove it? Let's just say that the parent stock are pure bred... OK, so what characteristics of each breed do you want in your eventual new breed? There are a LOT of characteristics to determine... You will have to choose them from the accepted breed standard of each breed, then breed to those specific standards. Or determine what the specific breed standards are going to be for your new breed, then breed to those. And there are personal choices as well such as eye color, hair color, hair length, etc.

Below is a partial look at an example JUST for your present buck:

Lets start with ears; Do you want elf ears (only allowed on Lamancha does) or the accepted breed standard gopher ears, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Lamancha_goat) or the more standard ears like the Sannens have? What does your present buck have? Lamancha gopher? Lamancha elf? Sannen? or something between the 3? To carry this cross and produce an F2 second generation mix of the 2 breeds, you'll need to find a 50/50 Lamancha/Sannen cross doe to breed your buck with. The kids they produce will be F2s, or second generation crosses.

Now if your buck right now has elf ears (by Lamancha breed standard it must be gopher, therefore he carries genes for 25% gopher and 25% elf from the Lamancha parent and 50% standard from the Sannen parent) and you want standard ears, the doe described above that you breed him with should ALSO BE an F1 cross with standard ears. If she has standard ears, she carries genes for 50% standard and 50% gopher (assuming her Lamancha sire & dam were gopher eared). This breeding will give you kids with approximately a 12.5% chance of elf ears, 37.5% chance of Gopher ears and a 50% chance of standard ears.

What you get will be up to God. It could be any mix of the three ear types. You could have 3 kids and each have one of those three. However they will each be carrying the gene percentages I said above. By breeding 6 generations of ONLY THE EAR TYPE YOU DESIRE, it will effectively eliminate the other 2 types. Until you breed that many generations, the other 2 ear types have a chance of coming through, decreasing with each successive generation. Even though it's a 50% chance for standard ears, what if none of the kids ends up with standard ears? Then you'll have to try again next year.

Now apply this to ALL the various characteristics of each breed, and you see why I told you it will take many many years, dedication, and devotion to achieve what you originally stated you want. Say you do all of the above, and you get a standard eared buckling from the pairing. Now we look at another characteristic, lets say facial structure. The Lamancha face is straight or slightly dished. The Sannen face should also be straight or dished. So in this case, either breed will provide what is acceptable by breed standard, so a non factor, unless you specifically want a straight or dished nose. If you have a preference, then repeat what I did above with the ears, but this time with facial shape. If you want a strong Roman nose like the Boar or Nubian, then that will have to come from the next addition of breed to the dairy side or wait to get it from the buck side later (2 dairy breeds - 6 years minimum then adding the 3rd dairy breed - another 6 years minimum) and doe side (2 meat breeds - 6 years minimum). At the end of this you'll now have a new breed that originated from 3 dairy breeds and 2 meat breeds. Minimum time investment 12 years More likely time investment 20 years plus.

Now that you have your new breed, you'll want to get it accepted and registered with the ADGA, AGS, or some other registration service, and expand the blood lines genetic base. Oh, and one final thing... you had best keep EXCEPTIONAL records along with pictures and supporting documentation.